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Flap performance



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 19th 17, 07:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Just Me[_2_]
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Posts: 2
Default Flap performance

I'm considering purchasing a Ventus B. I'm aware of the "stability" issues, although some the extent of the stability issue seems to vary from plane to plane and pilot to pilot. I've talked to some people who say its not a big deal, and others who say its problematic. It's hard for me to know what to expect.

However, I was discussing flaps with a flight instructor and a question came up: How does a Ventus in neutral flaps compare to a Discus (I'm aware of the handling difference)? If you are in competition, flying a flapped ships, against other flapped ships, you better be an expert with the flaps. But if you are doing cross country work, are flaps essentially just an asset that is optionally available to allow you to slow down in a thermal or speed up in cruise.

He asserted that the Discus wing was considerably more advanced than the Ventus wing, and that you had to effectively use the flaps or you were actually better off (performance wise) with the Discus -- ie if you aren't flying a lot, you should stay away from flaps.

Can anyone compare the performance of a Discus to a Ventus, or better yet, does anyone have polars for a Discus and a Ventus (as a function of flap setting)?

FWIW, I have about 200 hours, and have flown flapped ships, including a 301 Libelle and a Janus -- as well as a wide variety of other non-flapped ships.
  #2  
Old July 19th 17, 01:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Default Flap performance

Fast, unstable, edgy sailplane plus 200 hr pilot can eventually work out. Once upon a time I bought an HP-18 with 160 hrs. Eventually, it worked out.. It took a while.

There are better paths.

Buy a Discus (or LS-4, or DG-300...) and master it soon, start going places..

Buy a Ventus, spend the next couple of seasons wrestling with too much airplane.

Paper polar is 5% of performance. Pilot is 95.

Evan Ludeman / T8




On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 2:59:05 AM UTC-4, Just Me wrote:
I'm considering purchasing a Ventus B. I'm aware of the "stability" issues, although some the extent of the stability issue seems to vary from plane to plane and pilot to pilot. I've talked to some people who say its not a big deal, and others who say its problematic. It's hard for me to know what to expect.

However, I was discussing flaps with a flight instructor and a question came up: How does a Ventus in neutral flaps compare to a Discus (I'm aware of the handling difference)? If you are in competition, flying a flapped ships, against other flapped ships, you better be an expert with the flaps. But if you are doing cross country work, are flaps essentially just an asset that is optionally available to allow you to slow down in a thermal or speed up in cruise.

He asserted that the Discus wing was considerably more advanced than the Ventus wing, and that you had to effectively use the flaps or you were actually better off (performance wise) with the Discus -- ie if you aren't flying a lot, you should stay away from flaps.

Can anyone compare the performance of a Discus to a Ventus, or better yet, does anyone have polars for a Discus and a Ventus (as a function of flap setting)?

FWIW, I have about 200 hours, and have flown flapped ships, including a 301 Libelle and a Janus -- as well as a wide variety of other non-flapped ships.


  #3  
Old July 19th 17, 01:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default Flap performance

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 3:35:07 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
Fast, unstable, edgy sailplane plus 200 hr pilot can eventually work out. Once upon a time I bought an HP-18 with 160 hrs. Eventually, it worked out. It took a while.

There are better paths.

Buy a Discus (or LS-4, or DG-300...) and master it soon, start going places.

Buy a Ventus, spend the next couple of seasons wrestling with too much airplane.

Paper polar is 5% of performance. Pilot is 95.


Is a Ventus really so difficult if you're competent in a Janus?
  #4  
Old July 19th 17, 01:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 17
Default Flap performance

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 8:45:53 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 3:35:07 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
Fast, unstable, edgy sailplane plus 200 hr pilot can eventually work out. Once upon a time I bought an HP-18 with 160 hrs. Eventually, it worked out. It took a while.

There are better paths.

Buy a Discus (or LS-4, or DG-300...) and master it soon, start going places.

Buy a Ventus, spend the next couple of seasons wrestling with too much airplane.

Paper polar is 5% of performance. Pilot is 95.


Is a Ventus really so difficult if you're competent in a Janus?


It probably will take a little longer to get used to the Ventus. I bought a B as my first sailplane with no experience with any single seat glass. That said it has become an old friend and the flaps lets you dial in to the day quicker and more effectively and is a fast glider. Also the spoilers / flap combination are very powerful and a great tool if you need to land in small fields.

Dennis

DC
  #5  
Old July 19th 17, 02:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 317
Default Flap performance

Aft CG and winglets make the Ventus a wonderful airplane to fly. A good friend said "The Ventus likes to go fast" It excels and keeps up with the most mondern Sailplanes at 90+. I have 3000 hours in a Ventus b. I a upgrading to a newer 27, mainly for racing in 15M So mine is for sale 😂
  #6  
Old July 19th 17, 02:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Whisky
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Default Flap performance

Le mercredi 19 juillet 2017 14:35:07 UTC+2, Tango Eight a écritÂ*:
Fast, unstable, edgy sailplane plus 200 hr pilot can eventually work out. Once upon a time I bought an HP-18 with 160 hrs. Eventually, it worked out. It took a while.

There are better paths.

Buy a Discus (or LS-4, or DG-300...) and master it soon, start going places.

Buy a Ventus, spend the next couple of seasons wrestling with too much airplane.

Paper polar is 5% of performance. Pilot is 95.

Evan Ludeman / T8




On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 2:59:05 AM UTC-4, Just Me wrote:
I'm considering purchasing a Ventus B. I'm aware of the "stability" issues, although some the extent of the stability issue seems to vary from plane to plane and pilot to pilot. I've talked to some people who say its not a big deal, and others who say its problematic. It's hard for me to know what to expect.

However, I was discussing flaps with a flight instructor and a question came up: How does a Ventus in neutral flaps compare to a Discus (I'm aware of the handling difference)? If you are in competition, flying a flapped ships, against other flapped ships, you better be an expert with the flaps.. But if you are doing cross country work, are flaps essentially just an asset that is optionally available to allow you to slow down in a thermal or speed up in cruise.

He asserted that the Discus wing was considerably more advanced than the Ventus wing, and that you had to effectively use the flaps or you were actually better off (performance wise) with the Discus -- ie if you aren't flying a lot, you should stay away from flaps.

Can anyone compare the performance of a Discus to a Ventus, or better yet, does anyone have polars for a Discus and a Ventus (as a function of flap setting)?

FWIW, I have about 200 hours, and have flown flapped ships, including a 301 Libelle and a Janus -- as well as a wide variety of other non-flapped ships.


Well, if you are thinking about not using the flaps (which to me sounds fairly weired), why do you want to buy them in the firts place ?!

Bert TW
  #7  
Old July 19th 17, 03:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Eight
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Posts: 962
Default Flap performance

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 8:45:53 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:

Is a Ventus really so difficult if you're competent in a Janus?


Was it really that hard to understand my point?

best,
Evan
  #8  
Old July 19th 17, 03:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 961
Default Flap performance

On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 5:03:26 PM UTC+3, Tango Eight wrote:
On Wednesday, July 19, 2017 at 8:45:53 AM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:

Is a Ventus really so difficult if you're competent in a Janus?


Was it really that hard to understand my point?


Yes. The original poster says he's experienced in a Janus, also a flapped ship from SH, and quite probably older and less refined than a Ventus.

I've got 60 or 70 hours in an original (18m, flying tail, belly hook only) Janus and I'm very comfortable in it and with the flaps, to the point that I feel the lack of both low and high speed performance when I fly the 18m DG1000. I've never flown a Ventus or any other flapped single seater.

I'm finally, after 30 years flying gliders, in a position where I'm considering buying my own ship. I'm thinking about a Nimbus 2 or maybe Mini Nimbus, rather than Ventus, but I imagine the same considerations apply.

I've seen people flying ASW20s who try to ignore the flaps, and in particular seem afraid to use landing flaps and end up touching down 75% of the way down the runway and just generally ****ing things up. Perhaps some people would do the same in a Ventus. But not if they're competent in a flapped 2-seater, surely.
  #9  
Old July 19th 17, 04:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
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Posts: 1,224
Default Flap performance

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 07:44:52 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:

I've seen people flying ASW20s who try to ignore the flaps, and in
particular seem afraid to use landing flaps and end up touching down 75%
of the way down the runway and just generally ****ing things up. Perhaps
some people would do the same in a Ventus. But not if they're competent
in a flapped 2-seater, surely.

That's a good point. When I converted to an ASW-20 at about 250 hours, a
lot of which was in the club's Pegase 90, it never occurred to me to not
use the flaps: after all, if you've got them, why pretend they're not
there?

In any case I think the whole art of flying a flapped glider is learning
to replace trim changes with flap movements. The best analogy I can think
of for learning to fly flaps that its like somebody who learned to drive
with an automatic gearbox converting to a car with a manual box: its not
that changing gears is hard with a stick shift, but always being in the
right gear takes time to learn. I think it took me about 30 hours before
'always in the right flap' became fairly instinctive. The other surprise
was the way the trim lever gathered dust, but maybe that's unique to the
'20?

BTW, there's a Mini-Nimbus in my club. Its owner tells me its basically a
Std Cirrus fuselage and tail with a Mosquito wing. He speaks highly of it
and does a lot of XC kilometerage, so its obviously a good combination.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #10  
Old July 19th 17, 04:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tango Whisky
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Posts: 402
Default Flap performance

Le mercredi 19 juillet 2017 17:36:24 UTC+2, Martin Gregorie a écritÂ*:
The other surprise
was the way the trim lever gathered dust, but maybe that's unique to the
'20?


No, it isn't. I did adjust the trim on my Ventus cM 1200 hours ago, and never touched it again.

On the ASW20 I owned previously,I had to adapt the trim between cruise and thermal.

Bert "TW"
 




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