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Lowest power tow



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 20th 20, 02:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Lowest power tow

On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 9:20:04 AM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Saturday, 18 January 2020 22:30:51 UTC-7, wrote:
What's the lowest power tow plane you've ever seen or towed by? An Examiner of mine said his was a C150 with 100hp. I also once saw paperwork for an 85hp Luscombe to tow.


Dragonfly Ultralight used to tow hang gliders, equipped with Rotax 914S. Towed my DG303 at Big SPring TX during the 2008 HG worlds so we could assist the organizers with spotting 'cloud flyers' amongst the competitors.

Many gliders have been towed out of Sheets airport, north of Seminole, when they landed short getting back to Seminole.


We have a turbo Dragonfly at our place. Lots of power but a slow airplane. How fast was your tow speed behind the Dragonfly?
UH
  #22  
Old January 20th 20, 03:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Lowest power tow

Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the soaring brain trust could come up with.
  #23  
Old January 20th 20, 03:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Lowest power tow

"Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the soaring brain trust could come up with."

If only there was a way to get gliders in the air that didn't require dangerous and expensive rare airplanes... if only there was a "brain trust" elsewhere in the world we could look to for answers. Sigh... well it looks like we're alone with this mystery.
  #24  
Old January 20th 20, 04:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Lowest power tow

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:34:30 AM UTC-5, wrote:
"Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the soaring brain trust could come up with."

If only there was a way to get gliders in the air that didn't require dangerous and expensive rare airplanes... if only there was a "brain trust" elsewhere in the world we could look to for answers. Sigh... well it looks like we're alone with this mystery.


Giant rubber bands? Better yet a giant rubber band powered towplane.
  #25  
Old January 20th 20, 04:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
AS
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Default Lowest power tow

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 10:16:52 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:34:30 AM UTC-5, wrote:
"Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the soaring brain trust could come up with."

If only there was a way to get gliders in the air that didn't require dangerous and expensive rare airplanes... if only there was a "brain trust" elsewhere in the world we could look to for answers. Sigh... well it looks like we're alone with this mystery.


Giant rubber bands? Better yet a giant rubber band powered towplane.


How about a long string of sorts which we lay out along the field and tug on from the end or wind it up like on a fishing reel on steroids powered by something .... I can see it in mind now .... ;-)

Uli
'AS'
  #26  
Old January 20th 20, 04:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
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Default Lowest power tow

On Monday, 20 January 2020 06:37:06 UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, January 19, 2020 at 9:20:04 AM UTC-5, Ron Gleason wrote:
On Saturday, 18 January 2020 22:30:51 UTC-7, wrote:
What's the lowest power tow plane you've ever seen or towed by? An Examiner of mine said his was a C150 with 100hp. I also once saw paperwork for an 85hp Luscombe to tow.


Dragonfly Ultralight used to tow hang gliders, equipped with Rotax 914S.. Towed my DG303 at Big SPring TX during the 2008 HG worlds so we could assist the organizers with spotting 'cloud flyers' amongst the competitors.

Many gliders have been towed out of Sheets airport, north of Seminole, when they landed short getting back to Seminole.


We have a turbo Dragonfly at our place. Lots of power but a slow airplane.. How fast was your tow speed behind the Dragonfly?
UH


I believe I lifted off the runway around 50 MPH and we towed between 48-55 MPH. The maximum speed of a Dragonfly is around 62 MPH according to the designer Bobbie Ballie due to the airfoil and all the drag.

Used lots of runway ~2,000 ft, the Dragonfly takes off within 100 feet of TO roll so the tow pilot has to stay low as speed increases. Glider pilot has to be patient to stay on the ground till desired speed and yes you are looking up at the Dragonfly. I kept low tow position for maximum visibility and to 'follow' the Dragonfly as it moved around.

Yes the Dragonfly is very lite weight and it is easy to disrupt it. The conditions at Big Spring are strong thermic so yes I threw the Dragonfly around a few times. Plus we only towed to 1,500 AGL as conditions were quite good to get away.

The Dragonfly pilot was Russell Brown, IMHO one of the top 5 Dragonfly pilots and mechanics in the world so I had confidence there.

Other folks have used the Dragonfly as a tow ship, Gary Osaba in Zapata TX towed a Silent, Sparrowhawk and others. In Zapata we accomplished dual HG tows with the Dragonfly and I believe a few triple tows to 3,000 AGL.

I would not try this at higher elevations with high density altitudes.
  #27  
Old January 20th 20, 06:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Lowest power tow


The Dragonfly pilot was Russell Brown, IMHO one of the top 5 Dragonfly pilots and mechanics in the world so I had confidence there.

Other folks have used the Dragonfly as a tow ship, Gary Osaba in Zapata TX towed a Silent, Sparrowhawk and others. In Zapata we accomplished dual HG tows with the Dragonfly and I believe a few triple tows to 3,000 AGL.

I would not try this at higher elevations with high density altitudes.


With higher density altitudes, the turbo-914 is OK but as Ron has noted the tow speeds are limited with the Dragonfly. The normally aspirated Dragonfly's would be challenged at the higher density altitudes. I've had good, but careful tows from Russell Brown, Bobby Bailey, and Rhett Radford in Dragonfly's towing half a dozen types of lighter gliders. The turbo-914 has successfully towed my ASW-27B many times, but dry. It was borderline, and both pilots really need to know what they are doing.

The lowest powered tows I've experienced were behind a flex-wing Trike, forgotten make, flown by Neal Harris with a Rotax 377 and 35 hp at Hearne, TX. With this, we set two World Records in a Woodstock I- out and return distance and 100km speed triangle for DU class gliders. These were later eclipsed by more modern designs.

As another poster wrote, Garland Pack's early work in this area is notable. A cogent paper was written showing the effectiveness of completely stripping the tow plane to reduce all unnecessary weight- and matching props to the job. I have a copy somewhere but cannot locate it right now. As another poster wrote, the key figure of merit here is excess power. Penaud diagrams are effective in portratying the pertinent relationships and variables.

Please do not construe any of this as a general recommendation. More power = more safety, more options.

Gary Osoba
  #28  
Old January 20th 20, 07:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Lowest power tow

Well, let's see...Â* There are self launching gliders, winches, ground
launches, bungee, gravity...Â* We're really spoiled in the US with our
aero tows.Â* How about an air boat?

On 1/20/2020 7:34 AM, wrote:
"Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the soaring brain trust could come up with."

If only there was a way to get gliders in the air that didn't require dangerous and expensive rare airplanes... if only there was a "brain trust" elsewhere in the world we could look to for answers. Sigh... well it looks like we're alone with this mystery.


--
Dan, 5J
  #29  
Old January 20th 20, 07:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 478
Default Lowest power tow

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 10:32:11 AM UTC-5, AS wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 10:16:52 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 9:34:30 AM UTC-5, wrote:
"Is it time to design the sailplane towing version of the Dragonfly for when we run out of Pawnees? Be interesting to see what the soaring brain trust could come up with."

If only there was a way to get gliders in the air that didn't require dangerous and expensive rare airplanes... if only there was a "brain trust" elsewhere in the world we could look to for answers. Sigh... well it looks like we're alone with this mystery.


Giant rubber bands? Better yet a giant rubber band powered towplane.


How about a long string of sorts which we lay out along the field and tug on from the end or wind it up like on a fishing reel on steroids powered by something .... I can see it in mind now .... ;-)

Uli
'AS'


That is brilliant. We could attach a pulley that winds that string up to a motor then mount the motor/pulley arrangement in the belly of a glider and wind up into the sky.
  #30  
Old January 20th 20, 08:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 2,124
Default Lowest power tow

On Monday, January 20, 2020 at 12:23:46 PM UTC-5, wrote:
The Dragonfly pilot was Russell Brown, IMHO one of the top 5 Dragonfly pilots and mechanics in the world so I had confidence there.

Other folks have used the Dragonfly as a tow ship, Gary Osaba in Zapata TX towed a Silent, Sparrowhawk and others. In Zapata we accomplished dual HG tows with the Dragonfly and I believe a few triple tows to 3,000 AGL.

I would not try this at higher elevations with high density altitudes.


With higher density altitudes, the turbo-914 is OK but as Ron has noted the tow speeds are limited with the Dragonfly. The normally aspirated Dragonfly's would be challenged at the higher density altitudes. I've had good, but careful tows from Russell Brown, Bobby Bailey, and Rhett Radford in Dragonfly's towing half a dozen types of lighter gliders. The turbo-914 has successfully towed my ASW-27B many times, but dry. It was borderline, and both pilots really need to know what they are doing.

The lowest powered tows I've experienced were behind a flex-wing Trike, forgotten make, flown by Neal Harris with a Rotax 377 and 35 hp at Hearne, TX. With this, we set two World Records in a Woodstock I- out and return distance and 100km speed triangle for DU class gliders. These were later eclipsed by more modern designs.

As another poster wrote, Garland Pack's early work in this area is notable. A cogent paper was written showing the effectiveness of completely stripping the tow plane to reduce all unnecessary weight- and matching props to the job. I have a copy somewhere but cannot locate it right now. As another poster wrote, the key figure of merit here is excess power. Penaud diagrams are effective in portratying the pertinent relationships and variables.

Please do not construe any of this as a general recommendation. More power = more safety, more options.

Gary Osoba


The Garland Pack tugs were the topic of a Soaring magazine article.
Searching the archive should find it.
UH
 




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