If all midair collisions were eliminated...

On Feb 14, 11:27*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Dave writes:
Just to throw in *.02 re your TCAS comment..................

We have the ZAON XRX on board our Cherokee in a VERY busy environment
(100,000 operations /yr)

I cannot begin to tell you how useful this tool is in tracking
trafffic around us

For $1500 !

The Sandel ST3400 is a TAWS/RMI display that also includes TCAS capability,
with a fancy back-projected LCD display. That's probably why it is so
expensive. I suppose TCAS alone is a lot cheaper.

I looked at the ZAON XRX on their Web site and it looks like a pretty
practical gadget.

The Sandel ST3400 is a display for TCAS. The Sandel does not "include
TCAS" as seems to be implied here.

TCAS I systems start at ~$20k for GA aircraft, not including displays
and other critical components, and for TCAS II in a transport category
aircraft can go to prices you can buy a nice house.

The Zaon MRX and XRX are quire different than TCAS so I'm not sure why
this thread was renamed TCAS. They are examples of PCAS (Portable/
Passive Collision Avoidance Systems) systems not TCAS, i.e. to start
with they don't actively interrogate transponders, instead relying on
listening to replies to interrogations from ground SSR, and airborne
TCAD and TCAS systems. TCAD systems (e.g. the L3 Skywatch) do active
interrogations but are less sophisticated and capable than TCAS
systems, although some of the newer high-end versions of what have
traditionally been TCAD systems are meeting TCAS I requirements. Of
all these systems only TCAS II issues a resolution advisory (RA) (i.e.
instruction to climb/descend to avoid traffic, which override ATC
clearances/instructions). PCAS, TCAD and TCAS I and II acronyms are
pretty much widely accepted (TCAS I and II have very specific
meanings), quite different in technology/capabilities are usually
worth carefully differentiating between.

To the previous post, I agree that PCAS systems are very useful low
cost ways of improving traffic awareness, and I fly with a Zaon MRX
(and transponder) in my motorglider. However as with all systems it
helps to know of their limitations. For PCAS this starts with (1.)
they can only detect Mode C or Mode S transponder equipped aircraft,
(2.) that are actively being interrogated by another source (luckily
there are usually lots of those interrogators out there).

Darryl

jan olieslagers wrote:
schreef:
In rec.aviation.piloting jan olieslagers wrote:
Dave schreef:
We have the ZAON XRX on board our Cherokee in a VERY busy environment
(100,000 operations /yr)
I cannot begin to tell you how useful this tool is in tracking
trafffic around us
For $1500 !

But it will only show planes with certain non-mandatory equipment, if I
got it right? Is it not like radio at a non-controlled aerodrome, a nice
extra source of info but nothing to really count on?


If by "certain non-mandatory equipment" you mean a mode C transponder, yes.

That's what I meant indeed.

However, there is hardly any place in the US with significant traffic that
most people don't have a mode C transponder.

Ah, yes, in them US of A, yes, of course...
Then again, how do you define "significant" traffic?

Enough to motivate you to spend $1500 instead of asking for flight following.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

"Dan" wrote in message ...
Dave wrote:
Hi Dan!

If thats the case, he sure has learned whose buttons to push and how
huh?



How long have you been retired Dan?

Dave


Since 1994.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

You have been retired one year longer then I.

Wayne, U.S. Navy, retired

Wayne Paul wrote:
"Dan" wrote in message ...
Dave wrote:
Hi Dan!

If thats the case, he sure has learned whose buttons to push and how
huh?



How long have you been retired Dan?

Dave

Since 1994.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

You have been retired one year longer then I.

Wayne, U.S. Navy, retired

I was in special operations and played on Navy boats. The ones I
played on, Iwo Jima class helicopter assault ships, are all gone. The
odd part is the C-130 we had in addition to helicopters were built
around the same time as the boats, but are still operational.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

If by "certain non-mandatory equipment" you mean a mode C transponder, yes.

However, there is hardly any place in the US with significant traffic that
most people don't have a mode C transponder.

The places were there are few transponders tend to be well removed from
major urban areas and full of things like gliders, sky divers, ultra lights
and such.

--
Jim Pennino



What??!!!!

I respectfully must disagree with your two assumptions stated above!

Cookie

"Dan" wrote in message ...
Wayne Paul wrote:
"Dan" wrote in message ...
Dave wrote:
Hi Dan!

If thats the case, he sure has learned whose buttons to push and how
huh?



How long have you been retired Dan?

Dave

Since 1994.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

You have been retired one year longer then I.

Wayne, U.S. Navy, retired

I was in special operations and played on Navy boats. The ones I
played on, Iwo Jima class helicopter assault ships, are all gone. The
odd part is the C-130 we had in addition to helicopters were built
around the same time as the boats, but are still operational.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dan,

I served on five aircraft carriers. All have been decommissioned except the USS Enterprise.

If you want to see the aircraft I flew (A-3B Skywarrior and A-6A Intruder) you must visit a museum.

Wayne
A-3B (http://www.soaridaho.com/Family_Pict..._A3_On_Cat.jpg)
A-6A (http://www.soaridaho.com/Family_Pict...icers_1969.jpg)

wrote:



If by "certain non-mandatory equipment" you mean a mode C transponder, yes.

However, there is hardly any place in the US with significant traffic that
most people don't have a mode C transponder.

The places were there are few transponders tend to be well removed from
major urban areas and full of things like gliders, sky divers, ultra lights
and such.

--
Jim Pennino



What??!!!!

I respectfully must disagree with your two assumptions stated above!

Cookie

I'm talking about in the USA.

Happy now?


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Hi Darryl!

You have described the differences very well..

A full TCAS is simply not in the budget, and the ZAON is serving us
well in a very "target rich" environment.

We have added pulsing wingtip landing lights, Comet strobes and the
ZAON to our Warrior in the our best attempt to avoid conflicts.

Our little airport has over 100,000 "operations" /year.. Not unusual
to have two circuits in operation on the same rny, with 3 - 4
airplanes in each, with a regional jet and some military flights
tossed in for good measure. One nice afternoon 2 wks ago they were
launching or receiving an aircraft every 20 seconds or so. They gave
us the option of the cross rny , from the intersection, with an alt
restriction of 700 ft until clear of the circuit, so we took it and
got out of Dodge..

The controller was especially sharp, and was coreographing the whole
thing very well, and the pilots, mostly students, were right up with
him.

The ZAON is a great tool to show us where to lok. It has its
limitations as a passive device, but for the $$$$$ spent, it is very
helpful in our intense traffic situation here...

Dave





On Sun, 14 Feb 2010 12:12:20 -0800 (PST), Darryl Ramm
wrote:

On Feb 14, 11:27*am, Mxsmanic wrote:
Dave writes:
Just to throw in *.02 re your TCAS comment..................

We have the ZAON XRX on board our Cherokee in a VERY busy environment
(100,000 operations /yr)

I cannot begin to tell you how useful this tool is in tracking
trafffic around us

For $1500 !

The Sandel ST3400 is a TAWS/RMI display that also includes TCAS capability,
with a fancy back-projected LCD display. That's probably why it is so
expensive. I suppose TCAS alone is a lot cheaper.

I looked at the ZAON XRX on their Web site and it looks like a pretty
practical gadget.

The Sandel ST3400 is a display for TCAS. The Sandel does not "include
TCAS" as seems to be implied here.

TCAS I systems start at ~$20k for GA aircraft, not including displays
and other critical components, and for TCAS II in a transport category
aircraft can go to prices you can buy a nice house.

The Zaon MRX and XRX are quire different than TCAS so I'm not sure why
this thread was renamed TCAS. They are examples of PCAS (Portable/
Passive Collision Avoidance Systems) systems not TCAS, i.e. to start
with they don't actively interrogate transponders, instead relying on
listening to replies to interrogations from ground SSR, and airborne
TCAD and TCAS systems. TCAD systems (e.g. the L3 Skywatch) do active
interrogations but are less sophisticated and capable than TCAS
systems, although some of the newer high-end versions of what have
traditionally been TCAD systems are meeting TCAS I requirements. Of
all these systems only TCAS II issues a resolution advisory (RA) (i.e.
instruction to climb/descend to avoid traffic, which override ATC
clearances/instructions). PCAS, TCAD and TCAS I and II acronyms are
pretty much widely accepted (TCAS I and II have very specific
meanings), quite different in technology/capabilities are usually
worth carefully differentiating between.

To the previous post, I agree that PCAS systems are very useful low
cost ways of improving traffic awareness, and I fly with a Zaon MRX
(and transponder) in my motorglider. However as with all systems it
helps to know of their limitations. For PCAS this starts with (1.)
they can only detect Mode C or Mode S transponder equipped aircraft,
(2.) that are actively being interrogated by another source (luckily
there are usually lots of those interrogators out there).

Darryl

On Feb 14, 12:12*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Feb 14, 11:27*am, Mxsmanic wrote:



Dave writes:
Just to throw in *.02 re your TCAS comment..................

We have the ZAON XRX on board our Cherokee in a VERY busy environment
(100,000 operations /yr)

I cannot begin to tell you how useful this tool is in tracking
trafffic around us

For $1500 !

The Sandel ST3400 is a TAWS/RMI display that also includes TCAS capability,
with a fancy back-projected LCD display. That's probably why it is so
expensive. I suppose TCAS alone is a lot cheaper.

I looked at the ZAON XRX on their Web site and it looks like a pretty
practical gadget.

The Sandel ST3400 is a display for TCAS. The Sandel does not "include
TCAS" as seems to be implied here.

TCAS I systems start at ~$20k for GA aircraft, not including displays
and other critical components, and for TCAS II in a transport category
aircraft can go to prices you can buy a nice house.

The Zaon MRX and XRX are quire different than TCAS so I'm not sure why
this thread was renamed TCAS. They are examples of PCAS (Portable/
Passive Collision Avoidance Systems) systems not TCAS, i.e. to start
with they don't actively interrogate transponders, instead relying on
listening to replies to interrogations from ground SSR, and airborne
TCAD and TCAS systems. *TCAD systems (e.g. the L3 Skywatch) do active
interrogations but are less sophisticated and capable than TCAS
systems, although some of the newer high-end versions of what have
traditionally been TCAD systems are meeting TCAS I requirements. Of
all these systems only TCAS II issues a resolution advisory (RA) (i.e.
instruction to climb/descend to avoid traffic, which override ATC
clearances/instructions). PCAS, TCAD and TCAS I and II acronyms are
pretty much widely accepted (TCAS I and II have very specific
meanings), quite different in technology/capabilities are usually
worth carefully differentiating between.

To the previous post, I agree that PCAS systems are very useful low
cost ways of improving traffic awareness, and I fly with a Zaon MRX
(and transponder) in my motorglider. However as with all systems it
helps to know of their limitations. For PCAS this starts with (1.)
they can only detect Mode C or Mode S transponder equipped aircraft,
(2.) that are actively being interrogated by another source (luckily
there are usually lots of those interrogators out there).

Darryl

And I forgot to mention Mode S TIS (which is not the same as ADS-B TIS-
B). Which is SSR derived traffic position sent over Mode S to each TIS
capable aircraft. Only available where there is terminal radar with
TIS support. Area radar would update too slowly, so it's limited to
terminal radar coverage and then only if that terminal radar facility
has the extra smarts to do TIS. The TIS ground processor calculates
threats to each aircraft and uplinks that to that aircraft over Mode
S. Obviously the threat aircraft need to have Mode C or S transponders
and be within coverage of that terminal radar. TIS works well if you
have the coverage, and its relatively cheap, in many GA panels if you
already have an MFD and a Mode S transponder it is often almost
"free". Unfortunately the number of terminal facilities in the USA
with TIS has reduced since the FAA did not want to pay to keep TIS
when they upgraded some terminal radars. With ADS-B taking a very long
time to get deployed, I wish they had not done this (and some vendors
had proposed relatively low cost TIS ground stations that would have
reduced the costs of keeping TIS). Still if you have coverge today,
TIS can be a great service.

I deliberately did not mention Flarm that is great technology, but
mostly for gliders (and towplanes) - and unfortunately did not get to
the USA early on when it could have really grown like it has in
Europe.

And I deliberately did not mention ADS-B, since it is not really here
yet, but it is starting, but it is the long-term future in traffic
awareness systems, although it does not replace transponders/TCAS II
for the most demanding collision avoidance (a common misconception).

There are already some interesting low-end systems that combine things
like PCAS, Flarm and an ADS-B 1090ES receiver that are just shipping
or shipping soon, like the TRX-1090, TRX-2000, PowerFLARM and others.

Darryl

Darryl Ramm wrote:
/snip/

And I forgot to mention Mode S TIS (which is not the same as ADS-B TIS-
B). Which is SSR derived traffic position sent over Mode S to each TIS
capable aircraft. Only available where there is terminal radar with
TIS support. Area radar would update too slowly, so it's limited to
terminal radar coverage and then only if that terminal radar facility
has the extra smarts to do TIS. The TIS ground processor calculates
threats to each aircraft and uplinks that to that aircraft over Mode
S. Obviously the threat aircraft need to have Mode C or S transponders
and be within coverage of that terminal radar. /snip/
Darryl

Which reminds me: I fly out of a civil field in a notch of the zone
round a military base - where a digital radar upgrade has recently
appeared. I notice that with my mode C active, I seem to be able to
hear an interrogation as a click as well as see a visual interrogation
flash.

These days, I don't get a repetitive once a revolution style
interrogation, but rather a string of clicks when I am inbound (i.e a
threat to military types which do have squitter) in my headset tuned to
the CTAF

Brian W