Start Anywhere Cylinder (SSA rules proposal)

If the weather conditions do promote a start from the furthest point
from the first turnpoint, I for one would not bump the prestart
gaggle. This gaggle is highly unreliable for bumping. Typically it
is a bunch of gliders milling around (in and out of) a thermal trying
to stay below max start height. Its a crap shoot as to where the
thermal actually is for bumping. The start anywhere in start cylinder
is a great idea whose time has come. We are allowed total flexibilty
while on course to turn anywhere in the turn cylindrer, we should have
that right at the start.

Dale Kramer
K1





(Mark Navarre) wrote in message ...
16.0 “Start Anywhere� Cylinder
Present rules for start cylinders measure start time from your exit point, but
measure distance from the point on the cylinder’s perimeter closest to your
first turnpoint.
16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

Consider the negative implications of starting out the top of the back of the
cylinder and then bumping the pre-start gaggles for more speed. This would mix
racing traffic with non racing traffic, and high speed straight line traffic
with thermalling traffic. Yes, I know this happens already while on course,
but it's not safe there either. Why propose a rule just because the scoring
program can score it? The same logic was partly behind the 1 mile turn
cylinder (read between the lines of the poll). Starting anywhere sure adds
some new variables to "start gate roulette". So you say we will all figure out
the new optimum place to start, go there, and the point is moot? NOT. There
has been an optimum place to start for years with the current rules, but I
observe 20% of pilots have not caught on. That won't change with a new rule.
Why so many rules proposals, anyway? The rules were not that broken until a
committee broke them, while squawking "safety" among other things, and now
there are increasing efforts to protect us from ourselves.
I propose a new rule: 3 year rules stability. Allow discussions, polls, and
regional testing, but National level changes only on a three year cycle.
-
Mark Navarre
ASW-20 OD
California, USA
-

John and Gary

I answered this poll under then assumption that the best exit point be
used, not the last.

I am in favour of the best, as is the case for all turnpoints
thereafter, why throw in another rule of last exit or only from half
of cylinder, thats not what was asked in the poll.

Bumping prestart gaggles should not be the determining factor on start
location. First that assumes that the gaggles (now people are assuimg
there are more than one which is good) are on course line and that
they are not typical prestart gaggles where people are going in and
out of the thermal trying to stay below max start height. I would not
chance bumping a typical prestart gaggle and besides we have this on
course all the time.

Keep it simple and take the best exit point.

Dale Kramer
K1



Gary Ittner wrote in message ...
Mark Navarre wrote:

Then the poll question needs to be rewritten with clarity and completeness in
mind.


Here again is the complete text of question 16 from the poll:

16. ?Start Anywhere? Cylinder

Present rules for start cylinders measure start time from your exit
point, but measure distance from the point on the cylinder?s perimeter
closest to your first turnpoint.

16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

___ Yes ___ No

Mark, it is unclear to me exactly what you find unclear about the above
question.

John

I think the poll is very clear that the intent would be to allow the
most favorable exit point.

The rules as they are now allow a pilot to take his most favorable
exit point as his start and the poll did not mention 'last' exit (or
any other wierd modification).

Without the mention of the word 'last' the poll must then be taken as
a modification of current rules which gives the pilot his 'best'.

I can see how we think we are voting one thing but the next year the
rules are not what we voted on, I guess you need to be on the rules
committee to really know what people mean. If only you would let ALL
SSA members be eligible for the position.


Dale Kramer
K1






(John Cochrane) wrote in message . com...
A slight clarification to Gary's post: As I read it, the proposal in
the survey is NOT the same as the "area start" that the RC considered
and wisely rejected. The area start let you start from any point IN
the start circle. This one lets you start at any cylinder EXIT point.
The reason for the difference is exactly to separate people who have
started from the pre-start gaggle. (Well, at least as much as in
current rules. Often the prestart gaggle is outside the gate, so
people start and return to bump the gaggle.)

John Cochrane

....
16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

___ Yes ___ No

Dale Kramer wrote:

John and Gary

I answered this poll under then assumption that the best exit point be
used, not the last.

I am in favour of the best, as is the case for all turnpoints
thereafter, why throw in another rule of last exit or only from half
of cylinder, thats not what was asked in the poll.

Bumping prestart gaggles should not be the determining factor on start
location. First that assumes that the gaggles (now people are assuimg
there are more than one which is good) are on course line and that
they are not typical prestart gaggles where people are going in and
out of the thermal trying to stay below max start height. I would not
chance bumping a typical prestart gaggle and besides we have this on
course all the time.

Keep it simple and take the best exit point.

In my limited experience, out West it's true, is that if you're starting
through the top it's a good well defined thermal that it has a beneficial
climb rate.

As such, you should soon be over the top well enough that a on-course glide won't take you
through
the start cylinder again.

One case I can think this might not apply is with a strong headwind. In that case, you
could be an additional mile down-wind (and track) from the start.

In an effort to spread out the starts from the ideal point on a circle, I think this is a
reasonable
way to go.

On the other issue of 1 mile TP's I can only think that's going to reproduce the start zone
shenanigans (Respect to Netscape, that was in the spell-checker!) at each TP.
Trying to bump gaggles in order to go deeper/quicker into the TP.
Let's get everyone out of the TP ASAP so they can make indicidual decisions again.

Chris

Dale Kramer wrote:

I think the poll is very clear that the intent would be to allow the
most favorable exit point.


The poll says no such thing. Question 16 very clearly says "exit point",
not "most favorable exit point" or "last exit point".


The rules as they are now allow a pilot to take his most favorable
exit point as his start and the poll did not mention 'last' exit (or
any other wierd modification).

Without the mention of the word 'last' the poll must then be taken as
a modification of current rules which gives the pilot his 'best'.


Question 16 is intended to ask about distance measurement on the first
leg, and I chose the precise wording very deliberately. The issue of
"best" versus "last" exit is a separate and complex issue, and one that
applies to any gps start gate design.


I can see how we think we are voting one thing but the next year the
rules are not what we voted on


The Pilot Opinion Poll is NOT a referendum wherein the exact text of a
proposed rule is presented, and majority approval automatically enacts
it as law.

The Pilot Opinion Poll is precisely what the name implies: an opinion
poll. It is one among many avenues by which SSA competition pilots may
communicate their opinions on rules issues to the SSA Rules Committee.
The Committee considers the poll results, along with many other factors,
when proposing contest rules changes to the SSA Board of Directors. The
Board retains final authority over SSA contest rules, and has
occasionally rejected or amended the rule changes proposed by the Rules
Committee.

Gary Ittner P7
SSA Contest Rules Committee


16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

___ Yes ___ No

My point is simply that poll questions seem to be written on too
general a basis.

Intentionally or not, the committee has asked a question that can't be
answered without other (perhaps more controversial aspects) questions
brought forward.

I understand that the results of the poll do not mean we have changed
a rule.

I believe the committee does use the results to justify rule changes
if and when they agree with what the committee finally decides.

If, next year, we have a rule that allows 'last exit' distance
measurement in the start cylinder, I for one hope never to hear that
the members have given their opinion on the rule.

Dale Kramer
K1


Gary Ittner wrote in message ...
Dale Kramer wrote:

I think the poll is very clear that the intent would be to allow the
most favorable exit point.


The poll says no such thing. Question 16 very clearly says "exit point",
not "most favorable exit point" or "last exit point".


The rules as they are now allow a pilot to take his most favorable
exit point as his start and the poll did not mention 'last' exit (or
any other wierd modification).

Without the mention of the word 'last' the poll must then be taken as
a modification of current rules which gives the pilot his 'best'.


Question 16 is intended to ask about distance measurement on the first
leg, and I chose the precise wording very deliberately. The issue of
"best" versus "last" exit is a separate and complex issue, and one that
applies to any gps start gate design.


I can see how we think we are voting one thing but the next year the
rules are not what we voted on


The Pilot Opinion Poll is NOT a referendum wherein the exact text of a
proposed rule is presented, and majority approval automatically enacts
it as law.

The Pilot Opinion Poll is precisely what the name implies: an opinion
poll. It is one among many avenues by which SSA competition pilots may
communicate their opinions on rules issues to the SSA Rules Committee.
The Committee considers the poll results, along with many other factors,
when proposing contest rules changes to the SSA Board of Directors. The
Board retains final authority over SSA contest rules, and has
occasionally rejected or amended the rule changes proposed by the Rules
Committee.

Gary Ittner P7
SSA Contest Rules Committee


16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from
your cylinder exit point?

___ Yes ___ No