RC madness

Without question, this is a philosophical debate, based on the fear, emotion and perhaps the downright paranoia of few. Well, Andy's analysis and data and the opinions of a huge number of other US pilots notwithstanding. The scars of the 70's/80's leeching "epidemic" are clearly still healing, very slowly. Wow. One would think that period was deadly combat and not a nearly silent leisure sport.

Remember, I support this (barely) from the standpoint of reducing key variables (assuming improved results are possible from Flarm leeching, etc.) but only if it is proven not to impact the safety value of FLARM situational awareness for nearby gliders not yet acquired visually. This situational awareness is critical, especially in an often chaotic pre-start.

To me it simply comes down to a) is the value of BVR leeching or b) above average thermal identification, or c) IDing key competitors in the starting area really capable of regularly improving contest results for pilots that better master FLARM technology. That is a big assumption, and absolutely zero specific evidence is on record that any improved results are occurring.

The funny thing is that nothing today prevents the same supposed leeching epidemic of the 70's and 80's from happening again. And last I checked, "leeching" was not illegal. Its a tactic. A very common tactic. A desperate and uninspired one at times, but staying with your competitors can also be very wise. Perhaps this is why large and numerous gaggles constantly form in US, IGC and World level contests! Perhaps only attitudes about leeching have changed. Supposedly the USA's infamous TIMED (OLC like) tasks, which are roughly 97% of our total annual tasks, reduce leeching. Despite all this, we still have enough "percieved" leeching angst from a loud, influential few today to result in yet another major, complex US rule change.

As I write this, It occurs to me that FLARM leeching does exist (big assumption) those who have been "FLARM leeching" will simply be compelled to stay closer to the pack now. More leeching, not less, is a potential result of this new rule. A tighter, more intense gaggle. Not less leeching, even more! The old law of unintended consequences! Especially true at the world championship level but perhaps significant in US contests.

This whole argument reminds me of a book from my youth, "No Excuse to Lose" by Dennis Conner. True or not, it appears FLARM has developed into a very serious "excuse" for some. Blaming FLARM on their woes and hoping that by eliminating the perceived FLARM demon, the standings will somehow revert to the "proper order." Personally, I look forward to seeing the results of FLARM Competition Mode's on US contest results. I strongly suspect there will be none. But it will also serve to eliminate any remaining "excuses" even though they may be irrational, baseless and ultimately produce a real safety risk. I truly hope the new US mandate doesn't somehow result or contribute to an accident that normal FLARM operation might have otherwise prevented. Regardless, I see lots of serious technical and customer satisfaction challenges ahead for the FLARM team (a company that has clearly advised against this new limited FLARM function path we are now on) and the US RC, the IGC and the BGA...

I can only imagine the long list of public, angry complaints of a) surprise warnings (too late to easily avoid) or b) failed conflict warnings and c) other technical issues we may all experience next season. IMO, this rule is being pushed out WAY too soon for the USA. For a committee that had as a key objective (just this year) "simplify the rules," this aggressive, almost light speed move, is truly fascinating. The weighting of the variables in the decision equation is quite remarkable.

At least, we will all have some fun Xmas break entertainment as this war rages on.

Sean

On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 9:27:51 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
Wait, was this the analysis where you compared results across two contests in different years in completely different geographies with a commonality of about 15 percent in the participating pilot population and using the the highly nebulous "PRL to Performance Metric"? The one where you claimed it was "only 259 data points" (when one could as easily argue it was 2 data points; contest A and contest B). Where I think you used "Bayesian" in a sentence... a tactic I thought only an economist would resort to?? Yes - just poking fun at your expense.

But seriously, the statistics (lies, damned lies) you are citing strike me as only one aspect of the analysis. I think the other is either unmeasurable after-the-fact or would need a much more controlled environment to study conclusively. All I can tell you is what I've observed in ACTUAL contests using Flarm Stealth and not using Flarm Stealth and... more importantly.... what is very achievable in the realm of software development and user interface development in the near future.

I fundamentally believe this is more of a philosophical discussion than a technical one at this point. I'm afraid it may be hard to "win" this one on technical analysis alone.

Back to real work. Q1 revenue estimates are due, and unfortunately I don't have Flarm to use to leech off the other consulting firms.

P3

On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 8:25:58 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
" ...There can be no real dispute that open FLARM allows greater leeching.. Stop arguing about it.... "

There have been many posters arguing the above in one form or another. While not intending to offend ANYONE, nor intending to quote any particular individual... the above type of argument is akin to a woman arguing that her intuition should be accepted as fact in an argument! )

It is just as possible to argue that leeching BVR is a losing proposition, stop arguing about it... Andy is a smart guy who has taken the time to actually look at traces and has the skills to do an analysis.


One more time, Jonathan: FLARM facilitates leeching. I believe Andy is not disputing that; he's just saying that it doesn't pay off as a contest tactic. That's different than denying that being able to see gliders around you farther than the naked eye makes it easier to find and follow them.

I don't think gender has anything to do with understanding the difference between these two points but I do find myself empathizing a lot more with women who know they're right and who must deal with men who don't listen very well. Learning that you have a law degree explains a lot.

I don't think Andy has "proven" anything with his analysis but it's intriguing not just because he's a smart guy with an analytical bent and his own drone (note to CD: make sure that's locked up at Nephi), but because I confess I improved my performance in the two contests I flew with FLARM on several occasions, both with and without Stealth. Opponents may dismiss this as just more opinions or apocryphal stories, as they have others who have reported the same thing. Call me a liar. I didn't win those contests but I did get some help at critical times, help I wouldn't have gotten without FLARM.

At this point, no one is going to prove anything conclusive. Even those of us who were allegedly traumatized by leeches 30 years ago admit it's unlikely that anyone will win the nationals again with that tactic.

Andy, I noted your carefully parsed words about newer pilots. That they believe Stealth prevents them from tagging along with the big boys doesn't necessarily mean they could stay with them even with open FLARM. But you make a good point, with which I agree. It's been a time-honored technique to follow better pilots for a while to learn from them. But if Stealth hinders this, I'm completely in accord with open FLARM at regional contests, which is where newer pilots have traditionally come up to speed. I still think philosophically that it makes sense for our national contests to try to limit technology and techniques that detract from the individualism that's always been fundamental to soaring in this country. Yes, leeching isn't illegal and it's always been there to some extent. Open FLARM just makes it easier and that's why I--as a midpack pilot most likely to be displaced by leeches--support limiting its effects in a manner consistent with safety.

It's interesting that Stealth is being portrayed as the RC hurtling at light speed into the unknown. That might have been a better argument a year ago.. Maybe the scariest thing to FLARMistas is that Stealth has already been tried and found to work well. As several have observed profoundly: it's tough to fight change.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

At 04:47 22 December 2015, JS wrote:
Thought the "RC madness" thread would have a link to a crazy Radio
Controlled glider contest or DS video.
Jim


Me too, seeing that the FAA has just mandated that RC Soaring Pilots must
now register themselves and their sailplanes in a national database.

At 04:47 22 December 2015, JS wrote:
Thought the "RC madness" thread would have a link to a crazy Radio
Controlled glider contest or DS video.
Jim


Me too, seeing that the FAA has just mandated that RC Soaring Pilots must
now register themselves and their sailplanes in a national database.

At 04:47 22 December 2015, JS wrote:
Thought the "RC madness" thread would have a link to a crazy Radio
Controlled glider contest or DS video.
Jim


Me too, seeing that the FAA has just mandated that RC Soaring Pilots must
now register themselves and their sailplanes in a national database.

At 04:47 22 December 2015, JS wrote:
Thought the "RC madness" thread would have a link to a crazy Radio
Controlled glider contest or DS video.
Jim


Me too, seeing that the FAA has just mandated that RC Soaring Pilots must
now register themselves and their sailplanes in a national database.

At 06:35 22 December 2015, wrote:
On Monday, December 21, 2015 at 8:25:58 PM UTC-5, Jonathan
St. Cloud wrote:
" ...There can be no real dispute that open FLARM allows
greater
leeching=
.. Stop arguing about it.... "
=20
There have been many posters arguing the above in one form or
another.
W=
hile not intending to offend ANYONE, nor intending to quote any
particular
=
individual... the above type of argument is akin to a woman
arguing that
he=
r intuition should be accepted as fact in an argument! )
=20
It is just as possible to argue that leeching BVR is a losing
proposition=
, stop arguing about it... Andy is a smart guy who has taken the
time to
a=
ctually look at traces and has the skills to do an analysis.


One more time, Jonathan: FLARM facilitates leeching. I believe
Andy is not
=
disputing that; he's just saying that it doesn't pay off as a contest
tacti=
c. That's different than denying that being able to see gliders
around you
=
farther than the naked eye makes it easier to find and follow them.


Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

So what. In virtually every other kind of racing, following your
opponent and mugging him on the last lap is the norm. Happens
especially in athletics, cycling and motor cycle racing.
If you want to look at unfair consider the competitor who can afford
to buy the latest 55-1 water wasting glider and competes against
people who do not have that sort of cash to throw around.
Tactics and strategy are part of racing, if so called leeching is a
problem, deal with it. You do not hear other racers whining about it
all the time.

Leeching scenarios

1) I am in the lead going into the final day. If I start at the same time
as the guy in 2nd place and follow him tightly around the task finishing
within a minute or two, I have won the competition. Oh, but he launched
after me, how do I find him? Flarm will do it.

2) I am in second place going in to the last day and do not want the leader
to find me before the start because if I can get away without being
followed I stand a better chance of taking the pot. Place foil over aerial?
Must have been a malfunction!

3) I am reaching the bottom of my soaring band and need to find a climb. Do
I take the 2kt climb I have found here or fly 3kms ~ 300ft to the 5kt climb
that another glider has just taken at my height? Flarm does it again.

4) I am team flying but no longer need to wait at the top of a thermal for
my partner to say he is ready to leave (in order to stay in touch with each
other) as he can follow comfortably at a distance when he is ready.

5) I am in the glide flying at my chosen glide speed for the 4kt thermal I
am expecting to find. I see on the Flarm display that the thermals ahead
are actually producing 6kts not 4. Stick forward!

6) I am in the glide flying at my chosen glide speed for the 4kt thermal I
am expecting to find. I see on the Flarm display that the thermals ahead
are actually only producing 2kts not 4. Ease up.

7) My partner calls that he is in a 6kt thermal somewhere up ahead. I can't
see him. He could give me a code which I could then decode to identify
where but that takes time and effort for both pilots. A glance at the Flarm
display tells me whether I can risk a glide to join him.

8) I am flying an AAT and have entered the first area. I am considering
turning early because the sky ahead looks poor. Wait, let's check the Flarm
display to see what the other guys are doing ahead and verify that
decision.

9) I am flying an AAT and am on the penultimate leg. The last leg is a
reciprocal to the finish. Knowing whether pilots are fat or struggling on
final glide will help me decide my tactics for the remainder of the flight.
I will check with Flarm!

If you do not consider that Flarm and Flarm leeching can improve a pilots'
result (even the winners) then you are unlikely to be an experienced
competition pilot.

Jim

On Sunday, December 20, 2015 at 1:22:32 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
From Rules Committee:

"This is where we are as of today for 2016 FLARM-related rules that will be recommended to the SSA BOD (note that rules are proposed by the RC and approved by the SSA BOD - this year at the Greenville convention):

1. For National Contests:
* Organizers may request a waiver to require the use of FLARM, otherwise carrying a FLARM is at the pilots' option
* Regardless of whether a FLARM is mandatory or optional in a National Contest, if a FLARM is used it must be operated in Competition (i.e. the expected derivative of the current Stealth mode)"


I simply can not believe that RC would propose to use technology that does not exist. You have no clue what it takes to create and test software.

You guys would not survive in a corporate world a month.

Thank God, there is SSA BOD to stop this madness. It would have been a different story if the technology already existed and it was proven and field tested.

Have a Marry Christmas, Andrzej

i really hope to win a nationals without flarm just to really shake the **** up!...oh, and because i'd be national champion.

At 12:26 22 December 2015, Jim White wrote:
Leeching scenarios

1) I am in the lead going into the final day. If I start at the same
tim
as the guy in 2nd place and follow him tightly around the task
finishin
within a minute or two, I have won the competition. Oh, but he
launche
after me, how do I find him? Flarm will do it.

2) I am in second place going in to the last day and do not want
the leade
to find me before the start because if I can get away without bein
followed I stand a better chance of taking the pot. Place foil over
aerial
Must have been a malfunction!

3) I am reaching the bottom of my soaring band and need to find
a climb. D
I take the 2kt climb I have found here or fly 3kms ~ 300ft to the
5kt clim
that another glider has just taken at my height? Flarm does it
again.

4) I am team flying but no longer need to wait at the top of a
thermal fo
my partner to say he is ready to leave (in order to stay in touch
with eac
other) as he can follow comfortably at a distance when he is
ready.

5) I am in the glide flying at my chosen glide speed for the 4kt
thermal
am expecting to find. I see on the Flarm display that the thermals
ahea
are actually producing 6kts not 4. Stick forward!

6) I am in the glide flying at my chosen glide speed for the 4kt
thermal
am expecting to find. I see on the Flarm display that the thermals
ahea
are actually only producing 2kts not 4. Ease up.

7) My partner calls that he is in a 6kt thermal somewhere up
ahead. I can'
see him. He could give me a code which I could then decode to
identif
where but that takes time and effort for both pilots. A glance at
the Flar
display tells me whether I can risk a glide to join him.

8) I am flying an AAT and have entered the first area. I am
considerin
turning early because the sky ahead looks poor. Wait, let's check
the Flar
display to see what the other guys are doing ahead and verify tha
decision.

9) I am flying an AAT and am on the penultimate leg. The last leg
is
reciprocal to the finish. Knowing whether pilots are fat or
struggling o
final glide will help me decide my tactics for the remainder of the
flight
I will check with Flarm!

If you do not consider that Flarm and Flarm leeching can improve
a pilots
result (even the winners) then you are unlikely to be an
experience
competition pilot.

Jim

So here is the thing. Why consider a solution as dangerous as
crippling FLARM when there are other solutions. It is not necessary
for TPs to be ground features anymore, they can be any GPS co-
ordinate. So instead of a competition director setting the task with
TPs why not just set the task length and allow pilots to choose their
TP, not restricted to any point except perhaps the last TP before the
airfield. You could even require a finish track without specifying a
point. You could specify the number of TPs to be used and even
minimum leg lengths but the pilots select their own TP, which they
can keep to themselves or share, as long as they file the task with
the competition before launch. This allows team flying but someone
wanting to "hide" is able to do so. It is a sort of AAT set on distance
as opposed to time.
Solves the leeching problem and as an additional benefit means that
gliders will not longer be forced closer to others at TPs.
I know it is not perfect but it is another valid solution, perhaps not
an attractive one but there again crippling FLARM is not particularly
attractive.