ASW20 or LS6

On Jan 31, 10:17*pm, binks wrote:
Am I sound in my thinking, or am I
out in left field?

You're in the front seat of a 2-33 looking for shortcuts that really
don't exist.

Modern glass ships aren't "hard" to fly, but they presume a sharp
pilot with some finesse that generally isn't learned in a barge like a
2-33. You don't need answers on r.a.s. (witness willing advice from
people who HAVEN'T FLOWN THESE SHIPS (that's a pet peeve)), you need a
coach. The ideal coach is a CFIG who can fly with you and has
experience in the general direction you are headed (XC, glass,
competition, record setting, whatever). There's been some good advice
given in this thread, also some complete crap. I remember well being
in your shoes and have nothing but encouragement to offer. Good luck!

-Evan Ludeman / T8 (ASW-20B)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 19:17:09 -0800, binks wrote:

I am very competitive and welcome the increased complexity and challenge
of a flapped ship. I am looking forward to cross county flights and
eventually competition. Am I sound in my thinking, or am I out in left
field?

I agree with Evan, but would also add that you should get some time in a
two seat glass ship before tackling a glass single seater. You'll learn a
lot about speed control from flying any of them. Good speed control is a
necessity because a flapped glider is much more slippery than you'll be
expecting.

The ASK-21 is a pussycat and very well behaved. Time in one would be good
preparation for the likes of baby Grobs, Juniors and Libelles.

Before tackling anything more slippery (Pegase, Discus, LS-6 or ASW-20),
a bit of time in a Grob G.103 would be useful. The G.103, unlike the
ASK-21, has a tendency to drop its nose and accelerate in turns.

BTW, I've flown all the types I've mentioned here and also have one
flight in a 2-33, so have some idea of how it handles and its dragginess.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Well, I knew this would be a get-out-your-popcorn thread, and it did
not disappoint. You got a lot of good advice and some bad...

I'll chip in as an LS6 owner, who's never flown a '20.

The LS6 is another glider you wear rather than get in - space is
tight, for me especially headroom. There is a moment of
claustrophobia for me when the canopy first closes! I'm 5'10. You
may need to take out the backrest.

Easy to fly and land, with a couple points. That "0 incidence wing"
can be interesting on takeoff, as the roll seems to take forever. You
do not have to mess with negative flaps for aileron control though -
the full span flaperons are wonderful at all speeds. However I would
not want to try a 0-flap takeoff. The POH says +5 or +10 with water -
leave them so until after release. Speed control in the landing
pattern is important, so get some training in a slippery 2-place.

On Jan 30, 7:06*pm, binks wrote:
I am looking to purchase my first glider. I have been looking at the
ASW20 and the LS6. Any suggestions on which glider would be the best
all around? I have heard that the LS6 has a narrow cockpit. I am 6'2"
200 lbs. and would be wearing a parachute. Also heard that the ASW20
can be a little unforgiving to the uninitiated in the spin department.
Both seem to have very similar performance data. *All that being said
it is appearing to me it may be Ford vs Chevy

On Feb 1, 7:10*am, Sarah wrote:
Well, I knew this would be a get-out-your-popcorn thread, and it did
not disappoint. *You got a lot of good advice and some bad...

I'll chip in as an LS6 owner, who's never flown a '20.

The LS6 is another glider you wear rather than get in - space is
tight, for me especially headroom. *There is a moment of
claustrophobia for me when the canopy first closes! * I'm 5'10. * You
may need to take out the backrest.

Easy to fly and land, with a couple points. *That "0 incidence wing"
can be interesting on takeoff, as the roll seems to take forever. *You
do not have to mess with negative flaps for aileron control though -
the full span flaperons are wonderful at all speeds. *However I would
not want to try a 0-flap takeoff. *The POH says +5 or +10 with water -
leave them so until after release. * Speed control in the landing
pattern is important, so get some training in a slippery 2-place.

On Jan 30, 7:06*pm, binks wrote:



I am looking to purchase my first glider. I have been looking at the
ASW20 and the LS6. Any suggestions on which glider would be the best
all around? I have heard that the LS6 has a narrow cockpit. I am 6'2"
200 lbs. and would be wearing a parachute. Also heard that the ASW20
can be a little unforgiving to the uninitiated in the spin department.
Both seem to have very similar performance data. *All that being said
it is appearing to me it may be Ford vs Chevy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

+ a bunch on a flapped glider not likely killing you. When I bought
my Speed Astir, which doesn't handle nearly as nicely as the ASW 20 or
the LS6, I had 48 hours in a 2-33, 18 hours in a 1-26, 10 hours in a
Grob 103, and 1.8 hours in an LS4. I never had any issues. (until I
had over 200 hours in it, and got cocky!). The Speed Astir is another
glider you wear, which is a huge incentive for me to NOT gain weight,
as I'm at the upper limit of fitting right now, at 5'10" and 208 lbs.
Condition and trailers being equal (or close), I'd pick the ASW20,
mostly because DG has me worried about support.

On Feb 1, 10:10*am, Sarah wrote:
Well, I knew this would be a get-out-your-popcorn thread, and it did
not disappoint. *You got a lot of good advice and some bad...

I'll chip in as an LS6 owner, who's never flown a '20.

The LS6 is another glider you wear rather than get in - space is
tight, for me especially headroom. *There is a moment of
claustrophobia for me when the canopy first closes! * I'm 5'10. * You
may need to take out the backrest.

Easy to fly and land, with a couple points. *That "0 incidence wing"
can be interesting on takeoff, as the roll seems to take forever. *You
do not have to mess with negative flaps for aileron control though -
the full span flaperons are wonderful at all speeds. *However I would
not want to try a 0-flap takeoff. *The POH says +5 or +10 with water -
leave them so until after release. * Speed control in the landing
pattern is important, so get some training in a slippery 2-place.

On Jan 30, 7:06*pm, binks wrote:

I am looking to purchase my first glider. I have been looking at the
ASW20 and the LS6. Any suggestions on which glider would be the best
all around? I have heard that the LS6 has a narrow cockpit. I am 6'2"
200 lbs. and would be wearing a parachute. Also heard that the ASW20
can be a little unforgiving to the uninitiated in the spin department.
Both seem to have very similar performance data. *All that being said
it is appearing to me it may be Ford vs Chevy

I am popping the second bowl of popcorn as I write. I never expected
to get this kind of response. Thank-you to everyone for their comments
both pro and con, good or bad I like to hear it all. Helps to make a
better decision. I have a friend that has offered to take me up in his
2 place high performance glass ship and I will look forward to that
later this spring, along with some training in some other more high
performance gliders also. I will be looking at both gliders before I
make a final decision. I am aware of the spare parts and support
issues with the LS models ,but I do not believe that it will be the
deciding factor in my final choice. Probably will be the way I feel
after I have sat in and inspected the quality of each of the gliders.
Of course If I do not fit into the ls6 comfortably than I guess the
decision will be easy.
Dave (c62)

On Feb 1, 11:31*am, binks wrote:
On Feb 1, 10:10*am, Sarah wrote:





Well, I knew this would be a get-out-your-popcorn thread, and it did
not disappoint. *You got a lot of good advice and some bad...

I'll chip in as an LS6 owner, who's never flown a '20.

The LS6 is another glider you wear rather than get in - space is
tight, for me especially headroom. *There is a moment of
claustrophobia for me when the canopy first closes! * I'm 5'10. * You
may need to take out the backrest.

Easy to fly and land, with a couple points. *That "0 incidence wing"
can be interesting on takeoff, as the roll seems to take forever. *You
do not have to mess with negative flaps for aileron control though -
the full span flaperons are wonderful at all speeds. *However I would
not want to try a 0-flap takeoff. *The POH says +5 or +10 with water -
leave them so until after release. * Speed control in the landing
pattern is important, so get some training in a slippery 2-place.

On Jan 30, 7:06*pm, binks wrote:

I am looking to purchase my first glider. I have been looking at the
ASW20 and the LS6. Any suggestions on which glider would be the best
all around? I have heard that the LS6 has a narrow cockpit. I am 6'2"
200 lbs. and would be wearing a parachute. Also heard that the ASW20
can be a little unforgiving to the uninitiated in the spin department..
Both seem to have very similar performance data. *All that being said
it is appearing to me it may be Ford vs Chevy

I am popping the second bowl of popcorn as I write. I never expected
to get this kind of response. Thank-you to everyone for their comments
both pro and con, good or bad I like to hear it all. Helps to make a
better decision. I have a friend that has offered to take me up in his
2 place high performance glass ship and I will look forward to that
later this spring, along with some training in some other more high
performance gliders also. I will be looking at both gliders before I
make a final decision. I am aware of the spare parts and *support
issues with the LS models ,but I do not believe that it will be the
deciding factor in my final choice. Probably will be the way I feel
after I have sat in and inspected the quality of each of the gliders.
Of course If I do not fit into the ls6 comfortably than I guess the
decision will be easy.
Dave (c62)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm gonna be the grizzled old instructor that is going to suggest you
need to go very carefully.
I expect the folks I supervise to get at least 50 hrs in a 1-34(that's
what we have) before moving on to glass
of the type described. At the very least a good bit of time in some
intermediate ship.
These ships fly very nicely but they are heavier, twice as slippery,
all are tailwheel aircraft, virtually all have CG
hooks being aero towed, and all require very good stall- spin skills
compared to a 2-33 primary trainer.
To do this safely, you need a couple ships in between and a good
coach.
Good luck and take care
UH

At 21:39 01 February 2011, wrote:


I'm gonna be the grizzled old instructor that is going to suggest you
need to go very carefully.
I expect the folks I supervise to get at least 50 hrs in a 1-34(that's
what we have) before moving on to glass
of the type described. At the very least a good bit of time in some
intermediate ship.
These ships fly very nicely but they are heavier, twice as slippery,
all are tailwheel aircraft, virtually all have CG
hooks being aero towed, and all require very good stall- spin skills
compared to a 2-33 primary trainer.
To do this safely, you need a couple ships in between and a good
coach.
Good luck and take care
UH

Sorry to disagree in a way. Many people do their first solo in either an
ASW21 or Grob103, both could be described as fairly slippery compared to
the old wood and metal. Many other organisations accept that if you set
the level of training correctly, and train a person to fly the type he is
destined to fly then there should be no problem. Same applies to flaps,
there is no real difficulty there provided the right training is given.
I have long had issues with instructors who insist that people fly low
performance gliders before getting in the hot ships. If you set out to do
the proper training there is no reason to do that.
I too am a grizzled old instructor, been instructing for 46 years and in
the beginning all there was was wood or metal. That is no reason to force
those that have followed me to fly low performance first, I hope my
teaching is better than that.

On Tue, 01 Feb 2011 23:44:05 +0000, Don Johnstone wrote:

Sorry to disagree in a way. Many people do their first solo in either an
ASW21 or Grob103, both could be described as fairly slippery compared to
the old wood and metal.

I agree with what you're saying, but question whether it is relevant to
the OP. He only has time in a 2-33 so far with the intention of
transitioning to 1-36 later this year after a little more 2-33 time and
then, when he's comfortable in the 1-36, moving onto flapped glass.

In UK terms that is pretty close to moving from a T.21b to an ASW-20 or
LS-6 via an SZD-30 Pirat: the 1-36 flies with similar speeds and glide
ratio to the Pirat but is probably draggier since it is lighter than a
Pirat (215kg vs 260 kg empty).

Disclaimer: I've only flown a 2-33 and a T.21b. I haven't flown a 1-36 or
a Pirat. All the above comparisons were made using numbers from the
Sailplane Directory.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

Don Johnstone wrote:


Sorry to disagree in a way. Many people do their first solo in either an
ASW21 or ....

You mean BMW vs Mercedes, right?

-ted
BMW-29 "2NO"