CFI in IMC with Student

I am sure I can count on this newsgroup to give this question their best !

Would it be legal for a CFI [Not CFII] to act as PIC from the right seat
with a student in IMC ?

In my opinion regardless of the legality, it would be less than sensible,
what say the group ?

--
Roy
N5804F Piper Archer

"I have had some bad landings but I have never missed the runway"

In article t,
Roy Page wrote:
I am sure I can count on this newsgroup to give this question their best !

Would it be legal for a CFI [Not CFII] to act as PIC from the right seat
with a student in IMC ?

Yes, assuming the CFI is IFR current.

In my opinion regardless of the legality, it would be less than sensible,
what say the group ?

It depends. Is the CFI comfortable flying in IMC? How skilled is the
student? For somebody getting close to being ready for their
checkride, it should be no big deal, especially in relatively benign
conditions, and would be a valuble experience for the student.

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:01:57 GMT, "Roy Page"
wrote:

I am sure I can count on this newsgroup to give this question their best !

Would it be legal for a CFI [Not CFII] to act as PIC from the right seat
with a student in IMC ?

In my opinion regardless of the legality, it would be less than sensible,
what say the group ?

So long as said CFI meets the requirements to act as PIC in the a/c under
IMC, the answer has to be "yes" as to the legality.

I'm not aware of any circumstances where a CFI has less privileges than a
non-CFI. And there is nothing I am aware of in the regulations that make
my legality to act as PIC contingent on the ratings of anyone else in the
a/c, or their seat position.

So far as the sensibility, I leave that for others to discuss. But I think
whether or not it is sensible depends on the mission objectives.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron, Thanks for your input.

My own feeling was that it might not be legal.
My reasoning was that a CFII has received a check out flying instruments
from the right seat.
Whereas, a regular CFI has not been checked out flying on the gages from the
right seat.
Am I correct ? I am not sure.

On the sensibility issue, I would agree it depends on the mission.
This particular mission was a jaunt in the clouds with a certified pilot in
the left seat who was having problems controlling the aircraft under the
hood.
So the CFI took that pilot into the clouds saying he was PIC but the pilot
in the right seat did all the flying.
The CFI says it was legal, but in my opinion, this is just another case
where this CFI showed poor judgment.

Roy


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:01:57 GMT, "Roy Page"
wrote:

I am sure I can count on this newsgroup to give this question their best !

Would it be legal for a CFI [Not CFII] to act as PIC from the right seat
with a student in IMC ?

In my opinion regardless of the legality, it would be less than sensible,
what say the group ?

So long as said CFI meets the requirements to act as PIC in the a/c under
IMC, the answer has to be "yes" as to the legality.

I'm not aware of any circumstances where a CFI has less privileges than a
non-CFI. And there is nothing I am aware of in the regulations that make
my legality to act as PIC contingent on the ratings of anyone else in the
a/c, or their seat position.

So far as the sensibility, I leave that for others to discuss. But I
think
whether or not it is sensible depends on the mission objectives.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Sorry I must have worded it poorly,

No, you are in the Left seat and you are having problems controlling the
aircraft under the hood.
Now the point is to help you fly on instruments.

Roy


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:01:57 GMT, "Roy Page"
wrote:

I am sure I can count on this newsgroup to give this question their best !

Would it be legal for a CFI [Not CFII] to act as PIC from the right seat
with a student in IMC ?

In my opinion regardless of the legality, it would be less than sensible,
what say the group ?

Ok... I'm the student in the right seat... I'm paying for this...what
is the point?
--

Homepage
http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/

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Sorry I meant to say that the Pilot did all the flying from the Left [not
right] seat..


"Roy Page" wrote in message
nk.net...
Ron, Thanks for your input.

My own feeling was that it might not be legal.
My reasoning was that a CFII has received a check out flying instruments
from the right seat.
Whereas, a regular CFI has not been checked out flying on the gages from
the right seat.
Am I correct ? I am not sure.

On the sensibility issue, I would agree it depends on the mission.
This particular mission was a jaunt in the clouds with a certified pilot
in the left seat who was having problems controlling the aircraft under
the hood.
So the CFI took that pilot into the clouds saying he was PIC but the pilot
in the right seat did all the flying.
The CFI says it was legal, but in my opinion, this is just another case
where this CFI showed poor judgment.

Roy


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 01:01:57 GMT, "Roy Page"
wrote:

I am sure I can count on this newsgroup to give this question their best
!

Would it be legal for a CFI [Not CFII] to act as PIC from the right seat
with a student in IMC ?

In my opinion regardless of the legality, it would be less than sensible,
what say the group ?

So long as said CFI meets the requirements to act as PIC in the a/c under
IMC, the answer has to be "yes" as to the legality.

I'm not aware of any circumstances where a CFI has less privileges than a
non-CFI. And there is nothing I am aware of in the regulations that make
my legality to act as PIC contingent on the ratings of anyone else in the
a/c, or their seat position.

So far as the sensibility, I leave that for others to discuss. But I
think
whether or not it is sensible depends on the mission objectives.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Roy Page wrote:
My own feeling was that it might not be legal.
My reasoning was that a CFII has received a check out flying instruments
from the right seat.
Whereas, a regular CFI has not been checked out flying on the gages from the
right seat.

The FAA doesn't care what seat you're sitting in. While it is
traditional for instructor check rides to be taken from the right
seat (assuming whatever you brought along for the ride has
side-by-side seating), there's nothing that requires you to sit in any
particular seat while exercising the priveleges of your certificates
and ratings.

On the sensibility issue, I would agree it depends on the mission.
This particular mission was a jaunt in the clouds with a certified pilot in
the left seat who was having problems controlling the aircraft under the
hood.
So the CFI took that pilot into the clouds saying he was PIC but the pilot
in the right seat did all the flying.
The CFI says it was legal, but in my opinion, this is just another case
where this CFI showed poor judgment.

There's nothing you've described so far which would lead me to believe
it was illegal. As for whether it was poor judgement or not, that's
impossible to say without knowing a lot more about the situation (and
even then, I'm sure any group of 10 pilots would have 12 or more
opinions on the subject).

It does sound like you've got an axe to grind, however. Basicly, this
boils down to you saying, "I think this guy showed poor judgment, don't
you agree with me?" Were you the pilot in question?

Yes I do have an axe to grind, this CFI seems to have a habit of doing
things which show poor judgment.
For instance, VOR A circular approaches at absolute minimums to a very small
airport when an ILS is just 10 miles away.
Several local pilots and instructors hold similar opinions and he appears to
be an accident just waiting to happen.
Do you just stand by and do nothing ?

Roy



"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
Roy Page wrote:
My own feeling was that it might not be legal.
My reasoning was that a CFII has received a check out flying instruments
from the right seat.
Whereas, a regular CFI has not been checked out flying on the gages from
the
right seat.

The FAA doesn't care what seat you're sitting in. While it is
traditional for instructor check rides to be taken from the right
seat (assuming whatever you brought along for the ride has
side-by-side seating), there's nothing that requires you to sit in any
particular seat while exercising the priveleges of your certificates
and ratings.

On the sensibility issue, I would agree it depends on the mission.
This particular mission was a jaunt in the clouds with a certified pilot
in
the left seat who was having problems controlling the aircraft under the
hood.
So the CFI took that pilot into the clouds saying he was PIC but the pilot
in the right seat did all the flying.
The CFI says it was legal, but in my opinion, this is just another case
where this CFI showed poor judgment.

There's nothing you've described so far which would lead me to believe
it was illegal. As for whether it was poor judgement or not, that's
impossible to say without knowing a lot more about the situation (and
even then, I'm sure any group of 10 pilots would have 12 or more
opinions on the subject).

It does sound like you've got an axe to grind, however. Basicly, this
boils down to you saying, "I think this guy showed poor judgment, don't
you agree with me?" Were you the pilot in question?

In article et,
"Roy Page" wrote:

Yes I do have an axe to grind, this CFI seems to have a habit of doing
things which show poor judgment.
For instance, VOR A circular approaches at absolute minimums to a very small
airport when an ILS is just 10 miles away.
Several local pilots and instructors hold similar opinions and he appears to
be an accident just waiting to happen.
Do you just stand by and do nothing ?

Of course not. You should bitch about him on a newsgroup. If that doesn't
work, try talking to him directly.

To be honest, though, if your level of experience is such that you talk
about "circular approaches", I have to wonder if you're in a position to be
passing judgment on other people's instrument flying.

On Sat, 10 Dec 2005 03:16:07 GMT, Roy Page wrote:

Yes I do have an axe to grind, this CFI seems to have a habit of doing
things which show poor judgment.
For instance, VOR A circular approaches at absolute minimums to a very small
airport when an ILS is just 10 miles away.
Several local pilots and instructors hold similar opinions and he appears to
be an accident just waiting to happen.
Do you just stand by and do nothing ?

Roy

Hmm, can't say anything about the instructor you are talking about, but I
had an instructor that had me go to minimums at my own airport (VOR A at
MBO) circle to land.

In fact, one lesson, we tried three times to come back, and was in the clag
for all three missed approaches. Decided at that time, ILS at HKS is our
next option. Little did we know it went down to ILS minimums at HKS. We
broke out exactly 200 AGL at the middle marker.

I had three lessons right at minimums at my own airport, so when it came
for my first single pilot IFR, guess what? It was no big deal! He put me
through the mill, but when the chips (ceilings in this case) were down, I
was trained in the real deal. First day on my single pilot IFR, I went up
with 1000 foot ceilings, shot 3 ILS approaches, and felt like I had a ton
of time when I broke out. By the time I came back to my own airport,
ceilings went up to 1500, again, no biggie having gone through the "worst
case scenario" in my training.

I was thankful this instructor was not afraid to do the real deal IMC. He
went on to the airlines, and I finished up with a second instructor who
would never fly to minimums. My second instructor on the other hand, gave
me the discipline I now have in the cockpit so that I am further ahead of
the plane then I was with the first instructor. A great balance I
thought....

So, in regards to your opinion about doing circling approaches when there
is an ILS near by, well, I'd have to disagree with your opinion. If you do
not go one feet below MDA, then what is the big deal about a circle to land
approach? Bottom line, you still have to fly the plane.

Would you say I had poor judgment just because I enjoy flying in the clag,
and going down to minimums?

Allen