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Hold direct entry and speed in Skyhawk



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 12th 07, 03:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Terence Wilson
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Posts: 28
Default Hold direct entry and speed in Skyhawk

Hello,

A couple of quick questions/calrifications:

1) When executing a direct entry to a hold e.g. for the KAPC LOC Rwy
36L missed:

"...climb 3000' direct SGD VOR & hold"

I have been flying directly to the VOR then, upon watching the to/from
flag flip, I turn to the inbound course (167 deg) momentarily before
executing a standard rate turn to the outbound course of 347 deg.

Is this the correct technique for entering a direct hold or should I
be intercepting the inbound radial? It seems this would result in a
better pattern because of tendency to overshoot when flying direct
and immediately turning.

2) What would be an appropriate holding speed in a 172? I have been
using 80kts, which requires about 1700-1800rpm at 3000'.

Thanks.
  #2  
Old October 12th 07, 04:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mark Hansen
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Posts: 420
Default Hold direct entry and speed in Skyhawk

On 10/12/07 07:39, Terence Wilson wrote:
Hello,

A couple of quick questions/calrifications:

1) When executing a direct entry to a hold e.g. for the KAPC LOC Rwy
36L missed:

"...climb 3000' direct SGD VOR & hold"

I have been flying directly to the VOR then, upon watching the to/from
flag flip, I turn to the inbound course (167 deg) momentarily before
executing a standard rate turn to the outbound course of 347 deg.


I haven't looked at the approach plate to which you refer, but wonder
if you're confusing a couple of different terms, so I would like to
clarify.

When told to proceed "direct" to a fix, that does not necessarily mean
you will use a "direct" (versus teardrop/parallel) entry to the hold.

Your entry to the hold will be dictated by the direction from which you
approach the holding fix.

If the appropriate entry is direct, then when you cross the fix, you turn
to the outbound heading.


Is this the correct technique for entering a direct hold or should I
be intercepting the inbound radial? It seems this would result in a
better pattern because of tendency to overshoot when flying direct
and immediately turning.

2) What would be an appropriate holding speed in a 172? I have been
using 80kts, which requires about 1700-1800rpm at 3000'.


I use 90. I don't know of any reason you can't use 80 if you like, other
than perhaps going slower than the controllers are expecting, and messing
with their timings, etc.


Thanks.




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
  #3  
Old October 12th 07, 04:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Terence Wilson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default Hold direct entry and speed in Skyhawk

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:01:40 -0700, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 10/12/07 07:39, Terence Wilson wrote:
Hello,

A couple of quick questions/calrifications:

1) When executing a direct entry to a hold e.g. for the KAPC LOC Rwy
36L missed:

"...climb 3000' direct SGD VOR & hold"

I have been flying directly to the VOR then, upon watching the to/from
flag flip, I turn to the inbound course (167 deg) momentarily before
executing a standard rate turn to the outbound course of 347 deg.


I haven't looked at the approach plate to which you refer, but wonder
if you're confusing a couple of different terms, so I would like to
clarify.

When told to proceed "direct" to a fix, that does not necessarily mean
you will use a "direct" (versus teardrop/parallel) entry to the hold.

Your entry to the hold will be dictated by the direction from which you
approach the holding fix.


Duh! Of course. Thanks for pointing that out.

I use 90. I don't know of any reason you can't use 80 if you like, other
than perhaps going slower than the controllers are expecting, and messing
with their timings, etc.


I was using 100, but had a little trouble maintaining a co-ordinated
standard rate turn, 80 makes it a lot easier (and more fuel
efficient). Obviously I need more practice.

Cheers,

Terence
  #4  
Old October 12th 07, 07:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mark Hansen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 420
Default Hold direct entry and speed in Skyhawk

On 10/12/07 08:58, Terence Wilson wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:01:40 -0700, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 10/12/07 07:39, Terence Wilson wrote:
Hello,

A couple of quick questions/calrifications:

1) When executing a direct entry to a hold e.g. for the KAPC LOC Rwy
36L missed:

"...climb 3000' direct SGD VOR & hold"

I have been flying directly to the VOR then, upon watching the to/from
flag flip, I turn to the inbound course (167 deg) momentarily before
executing a standard rate turn to the outbound course of 347 deg.


I haven't looked at the approach plate to which you refer, but wonder
if you're confusing a couple of different terms, so I would like to
clarify.

When told to proceed "direct" to a fix, that does not necessarily mean
you will use a "direct" (versus teardrop/parallel) entry to the hold.

Your entry to the hold will be dictated by the direction from which you
approach the holding fix.


Duh! Of course. Thanks for pointing that out.

I use 90. I don't know of any reason you can't use 80 if you like, other
than perhaps going slower than the controllers are expecting, and messing
with their timings, etc.


I was using 100, but had a little trouble maintaining a co-ordinated
standard rate turn, 80 makes it a lot easier (and more fuel
efficient). Obviously I need more practice.


You can execute the maneuver at any speed (within legal speed limits,
of course). However, the faster you go, the more turbulent the ride
may be (depending on the weather), etc. 90 seems to be a good compromise
for the type of airplane. At least, that is what I was taught.

Are you an instrument student? What does your instructor say?


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
  #5  
Old October 12th 07, 07:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Matt Whiting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,232
Default Hold direct entry and speed in Skyhawk

Terence Wilson wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:01:40 -0700, Mark Hansen
wrote:

On 10/12/07 07:39, Terence Wilson wrote:


I use 90. I don't know of any reason you can't use 80 if you like, other
than perhaps going slower than the controllers are expecting, and messing
with their timings, etc.


I was using 100, but had a little trouble maintaining a co-ordinated
standard rate turn, 80 makes it a lot easier (and more fuel
efficient). Obviously I need more practice.


The slower speed means more crab to handle the wind also. I'd fly at
least 90 in a hold in a Hawk, but if you comfortable at 80 nothing wrong
with that.

Matt
  #6  
Old October 12th 07, 10:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 597
Default Hold direct entry and speed in Skyhawk

Mark Hansen wrote:
I use 90. I don't know of any reason you can't use 80 if you like, other
than perhaps going slower than the controllers are expecting, and messing
with their timings, etc.



Why would they care? They want you to drill holes in a little chunk of sky to
kill time. They don't want you flying out of the protected chunk of sky
assigned to you but what you do within it really doesn't matter. You shouldn't
be competing with other aircraft within the circle... ATC will stack traffic
vertically instead of within the circle itself.

Remember, the prime reason to hold is to kill time... plain and simple. The
reason to slow down is only to save fuel since you're not going anywhere. You
could fly around at full speed if you've got the fuel to waste.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com


  #7  
Old October 12th 07, 10:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Terence Wilson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 28
Default Hold direct entry and speed in Skyhawk

On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:04:42 -0700, Mark Hansen
wrote:

You can execute the maneuver at any speed (within legal speed limits,
of course). However, the faster you go, the more turbulent the ride
may be (depending on the weather), etc. 90 seems to be a good compromise
for the type of airplane. At least, that is what I was taught.

Are you an instrument student? What does your instructor say?


I'm a lapsed PP-SEL working on my BFR, then transitioning to
instruments. Recently I've been stymied by weather, aircraft
availability etc. so I've been using the time to study and practice in
MS FlightSim.
  #8  
Old October 12th 07, 11:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Chris
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Hold direct entry and speed in Skyhawk

Remember, the prime reason to hold is to kill time... plain and simple. The
reason to slow down is only to save fuel since you're not going anywhere. You
could fly around at full speed if you've got the fuel to waste.

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com


Agreed. No reason to go blasting around the racetrack. You aren't
going 'anywhere'. g

  #9  
Old October 12th 07, 11:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mark Hansen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 420
Default Hold direct entry and speed in Skyhawk

On 10/12/07 14:46, Terence Wilson wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:04:42 -0700, Mark Hansen
wrote:

You can execute the maneuver at any speed (within legal speed limits,
of course). However, the faster you go, the more turbulent the ride
may be (depending on the weather), etc. 90 seems to be a good compromise
for the type of airplane. At least, that is what I was taught.

Are you an instrument student? What does your instructor say?


I'm a lapsed PP-SEL working on my BFR, then transitioning to
instruments. Recently I've been stymied by weather, aircraft
availability etc. so I've been using the time to study and practice in
MS FlightSim.


Congratulations on getting back to flying. Stay on the group, as there
are a lot of great people here that can help.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
  #10  
Old October 12th 07, 11:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Mark Hansen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 420
Default Hold direct entry and speed in Skyhawk

On 10/12/07 14:17, Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
Mark Hansen wrote:
I use 90. I don't know of any reason you can't use 80 if you like, other
than perhaps going slower than the controllers are expecting, and messing
with their timings, etc.



Why would they care? They want you to drill holes in a little chunk of sky to
kill time. They don't want you flying out of the protected chunk of sky
assigned to you but what you do within it really doesn't matter. You shouldn't
be competing with other aircraft within the circle... ATC will stack traffic
vertically instead of within the circle itself.

Remember, the prime reason to hold is to kill time... plain and simple. The
reason to slow down is only to save fuel since you're not going anywhere. You
could fly around at full speed if you've got the fuel to waste.


Sorry about the confusion. I use the same speed for holds that I do for other
flight around the approach area (for example, while on "base" getting vectored
to the FAC), and I was thinking of these other phases.

Still, you can go as slow as you want, and I didn't mean to imply that there
was any requirement to the contrary.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
 




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