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#21
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Mounties Electrocute Airline Passenger
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:36:07 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder"
wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in : Larry Dighera wrote: Mace? Wrestle him to the floor? A net? Something with less lethal potential than 100,000 volts? 50,000 Volts, 18 Watts and 133 MilliAmps Where did you get that information? Given W=EI if the voltage is 50KV and the current is 0.133 amps that works out to: 50,000 volts * 0.133 amps = 6,650 Watts (One milliamperes = 0.001 amperes; did you mean microamperes?) The second paragraph of the citation below seems to disagree with your numbers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroshock_gun Principles of operation Electroshock weapon technology uses a temporary high-voltage low-current electrical discharge to override the body's muscle-triggering mechanisms. The recipient feels great pain, and can be momentarily paralyzed while an electric current is being applied. It is reported that applying electroshock devices to more sensitive parts of the body is more painful.[citation needed] The relatively low electric current must be pushed by high voltage to overcome the electrical resistance of the human body. The resulting 'shock' is caused by muscles twitching uncontrollably, appearing as muscle spasms. However, because the amount of current is relatively low, there is considered to be a 'margin' of safety by a number of medical experts. Experts generally agree that this margin is highly dependent on the overall health of the person subjected to the shock. Usually, the higher the voltage, the more effective it is. It may take several seconds to subdue a subject with 100 kV, but only about a second with 1 MV (1,000 kV).[verification needed] In current electroshock weapon models, the current is sometimes relatively low (2.1 mA to 3.6 mA) which is based in part on the electrical supply, (but for example M-26 Taser models produce a peak current of 18 amperes in pulses that last for around 10 microseconds [1] and use eight AA batteries). Electrical current above 10 mA at 60Hz AC is considered to be potentially lethal to humans, though not all electroshock weapons pulse the current at 60 Hz. The internal circuits of most electroshock weapons are fairly simple, either based on an oscillator, resonant circuit and step-up transformer or diode-capacitor voltage multipliers to achieve the continuous, direct or alternating high-voltage discharge may be powered by one or more 9 V battery depending on manufacturer, and model. The output voltages without external "load" (which would be the target's body) are claimed to be in the range of 50 kV up to 1000 kV, with the most common being in the 200 to 300 kV range. However since air has a dielectric breakdown (Emax) of 3000 kV/m, it is clear that the spacing of the electrodes will not permit the upper range of claimed voltages (900 kV representing a minimum electrode spacing of about 30 cm). The output current upon contact with the target will depend on various factors such as target's resistance, skin type, moisture, bodily salinity, clothing, the electroshock weapon's internal circuitry and battery conditions.[2][3] According to the many sources, a shock of half a second duration will cause intense pain and muscle contractions startling most people greatly. Two to three seconds will often cause the subject to become dazed and drop to the ground, and over three seconds will usually completely disorient and drop an attacker for at least several seconds and possibly for up to fifteen minutes.[citation needed] TASER International warns law enforcement agencies that “prolonged or continuous exposure(s) to the TASER device’s electrical charge” may lead to medical risks such as cumulative exhaustion and breathing impairment.[4] Because there is no automatic stop on a taser gun, many officers have used it repeatedly or for a prolonged period of time, thus potentially contributing to suspects’ injuries or death.[5][6] Taser The M-26 TASER, the United States military version of a commercial TASER.The name Taser is an acronym for "Thomas A. Swift's Electric Rifle"[10]. Arizona inventor Jack Cover designed it in 1969; naming it for the science fiction teenage inventor and adventurer character Tom Swift. Modern taser-type weapons fire small dart-like electrodes with attached metal wires that connect to the gun, propelled by small gas charges similar to some air rifle propellants. The maximum range is up to 10 meters (30 feet). Earlier models of Taser needed the dart-like electrodes to embed in the skin and superficial muscle tissues layers; newer versions of the projectiles use a shaped pulse/arc of electricity which disrupt nerve and muscle function without needing the metal prongs on the projectile to penetrate the skin. Early models had difficulty in penetrating thick clothing, but the 'pulse' models are designed to bring down a subject wearing up to a Level III body armor vest.[citation needed] Tasers are currently in use by a number of police forces worldwide to try to reduce firearms-related deaths. The Phoenix Police Department reported that officer shootings had dropped as a result from the use of TASER technology as an alternative to deadly force[citation needed]. Uses of a TASER device in this department increased from 71 in the year 2002 to 164 in the year 2003. Additionally, the number of officer-involved shootings decreased by 7 during this time period. In Houston, however, police shootings did not decline after the deployment of thousands of TASERs.[11] Although TASERs were originally proposed as alternatives to lethal force, they have entered routine use as a method to gain compliance at times when the use of firearms would not be considered. For example, in the case of Fouad Kaady, a severely burned man in shock and covered in blood sitting Indian style in the road was ordered to lie down on his stomach to be handcuffed, and within a few seconds was TASERed twice for failing to comply.[12][13] An inquiry found that officers acted appropriately in this case. In another well-publicized case, Andrew Meyer was tasered while allegedly resisting arrest in an incident which began with him exceeding his allotted time while asking a question of John Kerry at a political rally.[14] While they are not technically considered lethal, some authorities and non-governmental organizations question both the degree of safety presented by the weapon and the ethical implications of using a weapon that some, such as Amnesty International, allege is inhumane. As a result, a number of civil liberties groups would like to see tasers banned.[citation needed] Amnesty International has documented over 245 deaths that occurred after the use of tasers.[15] The fact that a death occurred following use of a taser does not necessarily indicate the taser was the cause of death or even a contributing factor because correlation does not imply causation, and as many of the deaths occurred in people with serious medical conditions and/or severe drug intoxication, often to the point of excited delirium. Tasers are often used as an alternative to attacking the suspect with a baton or shooting him with firearms both of which have a much higher chance of serious injury and death than the taser, even using the highest estimates of possible taser-related deaths. The term "less-lethal" is being used more frequently when referring to weapons such as tasers because many experts feel that no device meant to subdue a person can be completely safe. The less-lethal category also includes devices such as pepper spray, tear gas, and batons.There has been one case report in the medical literature of a person suffering spinal fractures after being shocked by a taser.[16] The US National Institute of Justice has begun a two-year study into taser-related deaths in custody.[17] Tasers were introduced as a less-lethal weapon so that they could be used by police to subdue fleeing, belligerent or potentially dangerous criminal suspects, often when a lethal weapon would have otherwise been used. However, tasers have not proved to unequivocally reduce gun usage. For example, the Houston Police Department has “shot, wounded and killed as many people as before the widespread use of the stun guns” and has used tasers in situations that would not warrant lethal or violent force, such as verbal aggression.[11] On Tuesday, 5 July, 2005 Michael Todd, Chief Constable of Manchester, England, let himself be shot in the back with a taser, to demonstrate his confidence that tasers can be used safely. This was videoed, and the video was released to the BBC on 17 May 2007. He was wearing a shirt and no jacket. When tased he fell forward on his chest on the ground, and (he said afterwards) the shock made him helpless; but soon after he recovered completely.[18][19][20] Although some police volunteers have shown tasers to function appropriately on a healthy, calm individual, the real-life target of a taser is, if not mentally or physically unsound, in a state of high stress. According to the UK’s Defence Scientific Advisory Council’s subcommittee on the Medical Implications of Less-lethal Weapons (DoMILL), “The possibility that other factors such as illicit drug intoxication, alcohol abuse, pre-existing heart disease and cardioactive therapeutic drugs may modify the threshold for generation of cardiac arrhythmias cannot be excluded.” Additionally, taser experiments “do not take into account real life use of tasers by law enforcement agencies, such as repeated or prolonged shocks and the use of restraints”.[5] |
#22
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Mounties Electrocute Airline Passenger
On Oct 17, 8:50 am, Tina wrote:
The invention needed is a taser that can be aimed at a usernet poster thru the screen, maybe configured so that whenever certain ones press send they get a jolt. I'm good at the big ideas, I'll leave it up to the engineers who post here to work out the details. .Tina Seen in a .sig file long ago: "What the world needs now is killfiles that actually kill." |
#23
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Mounties Electrocute Airline Passenger
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:36:07 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in : Larry Dighera wrote: Mace? Wrestle him to the floor? A net? Something with less lethal potential than 100,000 volts? 50,000 Volts, 18 Watts and 133 MilliAmps Where did you get that information? From their website. http://www.taser.org/m18l.html second paragraph. |
#24
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Mounties Electrocute Airline Passenger
The Visitor wrote:
This person, while noisy and attacking the furniture, was off in his own area and perhaps they could have waited him out? Tantrums are prohibited after 3 years of age. -- Message posted via AviationKB.com http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200710/1 |
#25
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Mounties Electrocute Airline Passenger
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote: On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:36:07 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in : Larry Dighera wrote: Mace? Wrestle him to the floor? A net? Something with less lethal potential than 100,000 volts? 50,000 Volts, 18 Watts and 133 MilliAmps Where did you get that information? From their website. http://www.taser.org/m18l.html second paragraph. They are intermixing peak and average values on that page - I'm not sure why. I found a more informative page on their site containing more complete power and energy computations: http://www.taser.org/electrical-specifications.html Peak values measured across 4000 Ohm are ~23,600 V, ~139,240 W, and ~5.9 A with pulse duration of ~3.5 uS. |
#26
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Mounties Electrocute Airline Passenger
It's official! Airline pax are cattle suitable for "prodding" with high-voltage. :-) On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 16:23:53 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in : Larry Dighera wrote: On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:36:07 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote in : Larry Dighera wrote: Mace? Wrestle him to the floor? A net? Something with less lethal potential than 100,000 volts? 50,000 Volts, 18 Watts and 133 MilliAmps Where did you get that information? From their website. http://www.taser.org/m18l.html second paragraph. That web site is not the Taser company's web site; it's some retailer's. Here are the manufacturer's specifications for their products: http://www2.taser.com/research/scien...rinciples.aspx TASER® X26 The TASER X26 is programmed to deliver a very short electrical pulse of approximately 100 microseconds' duration with about 100 microcoulombs of charge at 19 pulses per second for 5 seconds[2]. The voltage across the body is about 1,200 volts during the shock. From the TASER X26 only 1,200 V peak, 400 V average over the duration of the pulse, enter the body, or 0.76 V average (one-second baseline). ADVANCED TASER® M26 The ADVANCED TASER M26 has an average (one second baseline) voltage of 1.3 V, with a peak loaded voltage of 5,000 V, 1,500 V average over duration of pulse. There they say: To say that 50,000 V is delivered to a person is sensationalistic and very misleading. Even though both the ADVANCED TASER M26 and the TASER X26 have 50,000 peak open circuit voltage, to jump the air gap, neither TASER device delivers 50,000 V to a person's body. Because of the high voltage generated, the darts from the TASER device do not have to penetrate or even touch the skin. The high voltage allows the TASER device electrical output to jump through up to 2 inches of air or clothing to complete the circuit with the target’s body. Perhaps someone can explain to me how 50,000 volts is used to jump the gap to the person's body, but 50,000 volts is not delivered to the person. This sounds like double-speak to me. Are Tasers routinely calibrated and certified by an independent testing laboratory as vehicle speed radar/lidar are? If not, why not? |
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Mounties Electrocute Airline Passenger
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:01:34 -0500, Dave S wrote in : Tazers have actually been proven to REDUCE injury rates overall, both in suspects Can you cite any evidence that supports that assertion? AND in officers.. TREMENDOUSLY reduce them, I can see how that would be true. and associated workers comp claims. Well, that's what's important. :-( I will research that assertion and get back to you. Ive heard only third-hand but from personally credible individuals that this is the case where I live. Overall the turds get injured less, and the cops get injured less. I sincerely do not believe that the tasing itself is the causative factor in apprehensive deaths. Turds.. I mean "suspects".. as a general rule are directly responsible for the events leading to their apprehension, and if injured, directly responsbible for causing an incident to escalate to the point of their injury. Its really that simple. Practically every officer in my region, to carry a taser, has to be tased once: if this was lethal force, would they be doing that? The workers comp thing wasn't meant to be coy. Less injured cops means more police on the street, and more productive policing. Better use of YOUR tax dollars at protecting YOU. |
#28
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Mounties Electrocute Airline Passenger
Larry Dighera wrote:
On Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:13:37 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in : Larry Dighera wrote: Is airline passenger abuse on the rise as a result of passenger reaction to airline delays? http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-col...r.html?ref=rss What passenger abuse? The man was out of control until the cops zapped him. It sounds like the passenger was maniacal well after that. Have you any idea how long a Taser is capable of sustained high-voltage output? Yes Is it controllable by the LEO? In a fashion. Their only control with regards to this is to pull the trigger. On or off. Until a dart is removed, I would think the LEO could continue to apply high-voltage until the battery was exhausted. The ones in use in my locale (the 5 county area surrounding Houston, Texas, by numerous city and county LEO's) have a 5 second burst per trigger pull. They also have recording capability from a data standpoint. I asked one officer I work with on a regular basis if he'd ever deployed his for cause (not training or test) and he answered twice. Once for one shock, and once for 7 shocks. The suspect in the 7 shock event didn't understand that it was unnacceptable to keep lashing, lunging, kicking or biting the police officers during apprehension, nor was it acceptable to kick out the rear window of the transporting patrol car despite repeated warnings. This event was deemed justified on review. He must have had a weak heart... maybe helped along by some chemical recreational aids. Perhaps. I doubt the coroner will find the passenger to have expired as a result of the Mounties arresting the passenger. It would be interesting to know where the darts hit the passenger. If it was across the chest, I can see how the Taser may have precipitated a heart attack. I cant. A taser is not a defibrillator, nor a cardioverter. All use electricity, but in different manners. The energy involved is much different. The capacitors involved in medical devices such as external defibrillators are larger than the entire taser device, and the energy involved is orders of magnitude larger. The energy flows from dart to dart and the path of least resistance is across the skin and skeletal muscles. Lungs, bone and other tissues have increased resistance, which is why so much more energy is used for medical purposes such as defibrillation. You AIM a taser at the center of mass.. so by definition you are aiming at the chest and back. You consider controlling a berserk person abuse? What should the cops have tried first? Time out? Mace? Wrestle him to the floor? A net? Something with less lethal potential than 100,000 volts? Maybe they should try asking the suspect nicely and offer him a hug. |
#29
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Mounties Electrocute Airline Passenger
("Larry Dighera" wrote)
Mace? Wrestle him to the floor? A net? Something with less lethal potential than 100,000 volts? This scene in Planet of The Apes (1968) comes to mind: Taylor breaks free and is running around the Ape compound (he's scaring the little ones!) Eventually, a net is dropped over him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRG6ahCs_t0 "Take your stinking paws off me, you damned dirty ape!" NAC (Necessary Aviation Content) Paper airplane in the courtroom scene Montblack http://www.cloudster.com/Sets&Vehicles/ApesShip/Sci-Fi&FantasyModels38/IllustrationPage5-A.jpg Icarus Spaceship |
#30
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Mounties Electrocute Airline Passenger
Dave S wrote:
Larry Dighera wrote: Perhaps. I doubt the coroner will find the passenger to have expired as a result of the Mounties arresting the passenger. It would be interesting to know where the darts hit the passenger. If it was across the chest, I can see how the Taser may have precipitated a heart attack. I cant. A taser is not a defibrillator, nor a cardioverter. All use electricity, but in different manners. The energy involved is much different. The capacitors involved in medical devices such as external defibrillators are larger than the entire taser device, and the energy involved is orders of magnitude larger. Larry.. for further comparison.. http://www.taser.org/specifications.html has some data. Most specifically.. each individual energy pulse is 1.76 Joules. When I use a defibrillator on a patient in cardiac arrest, the recommended energy ranges are 200-360 joules per discharge. They have to JUST to be able to get 5-10 joules of energy to the heart itself (which is the range of energy that INTERNAL defibrillators run at - devices that have DIRECT electrical contact with the heart. Notice again, the taser only puts out less than 2 joules. A police car strobe light runs about 10 joules per flash. Aircraft strobes run in the 30 joule range Does this put things in a perspective? |
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