Mounties Electrocute Airline Passenger

On 2007-10-17 17:00:29 -0700, "Montblack"
said:

("Larry Dighera" wrote)
Mace? Wrestle him to the floor? A net? Something with less lethal
potential than 100,000 volts?


This scene in Planet of The Apes (1968) comes to mind: Taylor breaks free
and is running around the Ape compound (he's scaring the little ones!)
Eventually, a net is dropped over him.

I think that point of that scene was that the Apes were treating him
like a wild animal. Was that not dehumanizing and hazardous?


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

We know who the enemy is, but
we force our gendarmes to put on a huge show of "fairness", even if it
means shaming ourselves and making the streets more dangerous.

Perhaps it's the one thing that prevents us from becoming one of them.

Jose
--
You can choose whom to befriend, but you cannot choose whom to love.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:44:42 -0700, Jay Honeck
wrote in . com:

The leader of our country, while he was governor of Texas, put more
"criminals" to death than all the rest of the states combined, IIRC.
Perhaps such disrespect for human life and moral justice is unique to
Texas or a result of shallow insight, but it is reprehensible none the
less. It saddens me to see America losing its way through the
darkness of tyranny and injustice, and joining the unenlightened in
trampling human dignity. It always starts at the top.

Your knowledge of American history shows definite signs of a
revisionist education.

It's only been in the last 30 years that Americans turned into the
pansies of the world. What you now call "justice" and "nobility" most
of the world called "stupid" and "ineffective".

Of course you can provide objective evidence to substantiate that
claim. :-)

That validity of that assertion wouldn't surprise me, but what the
rest of the world calls the uniquely egalitarian American system of
justice is not very relevant in light of their less-than-just systems.
In any event, just because most of the world is still in the dark ages
culturally, doesn't make their opinions more valid than ours; quite
the contrary.

From the debacle at Desert One (under our now media-revered Jimmy
Carter) until we invaded Afghanistan, America was viewed world-wide as
the superpower that was afraid of a fight. Sure, we'd launch a few
F-111s to drop bombs on bedouins, but it was widely assumed by tyrants
and petty dictators that America was too shell-shocked from Viet Nam
to ever put boots on the ground.

Even if that were true, it would have been an incorrect opinion
obviously. Someone I admire once said, "Walk softly, but carry a big
stick." I prefer that policy to tramping around loudly rattling
sabers (at enormous cost in lives and money) and having nothing but a
display of bravado to show for it in the end.

Even the Coalition's stunning success in Kuwait, during Desert Storm,
didn't fully dispel the notion that we wouldn't fight back.

I would characterize that policy of limited engagement as prudent,
effective, and smart.

Guys like Sadaam and bin Laden were encouraged by our failure to finish
the job.

What failure? The job was finished. Saddam was reduced to a
militarily impotent potentate keeping the "peace" in the middle east.
Now the equilibrium is upset, and fighting is breaking out in Turkey,
Lebanon, Syria, ..., and probably Iran, Jordan, and elsewhere soon.
Not too smart, if stability is an important part of the goal.

They were encouraged by the impediment American freedom and justice
poses to persecution of suspects prior to their committing a terrorist
attack. That is one of the prices of American freedom and justice.

IMHO, it was this perception that made us susceptible to attack.

It was American lack of draconian security measures and despotism that
provided terrorists the window of vulnerability, and still does to a
lesser extent today, IMO.

The
Islamo-Fascists continued their ever-escalating attacks through 9/11,
when America was finally shaken from its slumber and began kicking
back.

Violence begets violence. America's reaction to attack is a natural
human one, but a THINKING leader could have found cheaper, less overt
and more effective methods to neutralize terrorist organizations (for
example not releasing the Bin Laden family to fly out of the country
during the grounding of all civil aircraft immediately after the
September 11, 2001 attacks), if that was truly his objective.

Since then, the terrorists have been completely neutralized --
truly a great, historic American victory.

Well, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED! :-)

Terrorism will never be neutralized. Where did you ever get that
idea?

Violence is the sole effective weapon against indifference the
disenfranchised possess. Until (and if) that changes, and the
Russians run out of weapons to supply our enemies, terrorism will
continue. How naïve can you be? (shaking head in incredulity)

Of course, the liberal media won't present it that way, perhaps ever.

So you have firsthand information that contradicts the mainstream news
media? Tell me more...

Remember, this is the same group that can't see Korea and Viet Nam as
anything but "American meddling in civil wars." Students of history
understand the significance of these battles, and the fact that they
were, in fact, different fronts in our (victorious) decades-long Cold
War with the Soviet Union and China.

That war still seems to be alive and well today to some extent. It
would be a mistake for America to believe that we have won a complete
victory in the cold war.

It is unfortunate indeed for America to have such an ineffectual
Gilligan at its helm during this important period in history. The
sooner he is replaced with an intelligent, knowledgeable and creative
leader that other world leaders can be seen publicly respecting
without fear of reprisal from their constituency, the sooner progress
toward peace may resume.

The pendulum has now swung back, perhaps too far the other way.
Sadly, this is normal, in a republic like ours. I suspect it will be
corrected at the next election cycle. (Although, of course, it is
hopelessly simplistic to believe that anything substantive will change
as the result of a presidential election.)

As long as the same corrupt and inept people continue to occupy their
Congressional and Executive seats, little will change. Nothing is
going to correct the immense debt our nation has incurred, and is
currently incurring, to the tune of $2-1/2-billion weekly.

Imagine if that huge amount of money had been used toward reducing
class size, and increasing the skill level of personnel involved in
public education, real research to replace petroleum as our nation's
fuel of choice, infrastructure maintenance, and fundamental scientific
research, instead of being flushed down a toilet called Iraq. Our
nation would become invincible instead of insolvent. But oh well....

Either way, I completely sympathize with Dave's point of view. Our
society has a large segment of easily identified, blatantly arrogant
scum that make up the lion's share of criminal perps. The cops know
who they are, and anyone with a brain stem knows who they are -- yet
most of the time society is at their mercy until they get caught red-
handed.

I hope you never find yourself the subject of a police arrest by an
LEO who mistakes you for one of those "scum." Or perhaps it would be
a fitting irony.

Regardless, ALL persons deserve to be treated with respect and
dignity, even murders, felons, and even illiterate, impoverished
rednecks. The price of that respect isn't nearly as high as the price
of the Gestapo's lost of respect for citizens.

Perhaps you see the Amish, who forgave the killer who coldheartedly
murdered their children recently, as stupid. I see them as
enlightened and noble. We need to surmount or primal instincts and
use our intelligence to learn a lesson, IMO.

It's the domestic version of TSA strip-searching an old lady in order
to look like they're not "profiling". We know who the enemy is, but
we force our gendarmes to put on a huge show of "fairness", even if it
means shaming ourselves and making the streets more dangerous.

A lack of arrests doesn't increase street hazards; it just doesn't
reduce them.

Because you haven't lived under an arbitrary system of (in)justice
that behaves as you seem to prefer (guilty until proven innocent), you
don't really have any idea of the consequences of what you seem to be
proposing.

Dealing with that segment day after day -- as our "Thin Blue Line"
does -- would harden anyone.

Agreed. It's evident in the attitude of many LEOs.

The police have my utmost respect.

Some do and some don't. When I see a LEO needlessly using his
authority and might as an excuse to vent his vicious tendencies
against a helpless citizen overwhelmed by blue-suits, or the planting
of evidence on suspects as occurred in the LAPD Rampart case*, it
makes me cringe, and it should make you feel the same.

Perhaps the situation is different where you are, but citizens in Los
Angeles County and neighboring counties have almost as much to fear
from the LEOs as they do from gangsters and criminals.

It's time the people of our nation halt its progress toward
intolerance, retreat from the rule of law and justice, and demand they
be respected as set forth in our nation's Constitution: all created
equal. As soon as a privileged class exempt from obeying the law
emerges, the beginning of anarchy will be neigh.
/soapbox


In any event, it is unfortunate that the unruly airline passenger (who
apparently threatened no one) died at the hands of Mounties in the
airline terminal. The incident should serve as impetus to refine
arrest methods and procedures.



* http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ndal/cron.html

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:57:39 -0700, C J Campbell
wrote in
2007101809573916807-christophercampbell@hotmailcom:

He died of emotional upset, not of a Taser

I hadn't realized you personally conducted an autopsy on the foreign
airline passenger. I guess I'll have to defer to your superior
knowledge of the issue. :-)

Are you able to provide a credible citation that supports your
assertion?

Larry Dighera wrote:
On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:57:39 -0700, C J Campbell
wrote in
2007101809573916807-christophercampbell@hotmailcom:

He died of emotional upset, not of a Taser

I hadn't realized you personally conducted an autopsy on the foreign
airline passenger. I guess I'll have to defer to your superior
knowledge of the issue. :-)

Are you able to provide a credible citation that supports your
assertion?


Since when does he need facts to make an assertion? I refer to the subject line
of this thread, which as I recall was chosen by you. You apparently have access
to information denied to the rest of us.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

("Larry Dighera" wrote)
The leader of our country, while he was governor of Texas, put more
"criminals" to death than all the rest of the states combined, IIRC.
Perhaps such disrespect for human life and moral justice is unique to
Texas or a result of shallow insight, but it is reprehensible none the
less. It saddens me to see America losing its way through the
darkness of tyranny and injustice, and joining the unenlightened in
trampling human dignity. It always starts at the top.


I see no difference between hitting the beaches at Normandy and hitting the
switch for the electric chair - both are necessary in combating
....."evil-doers".


Montblack

On 2007-10-18 10:41:54 -0700, Larry Dighera said:

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:57:39 -0700, C J Campbell
wrote in
2007101809573916807-christophercampbell@hotmailcom:

He died of emotional upset, not of a Taser

I hadn't realized you personally conducted an autopsy on the foreign
airline passenger. I guess I'll have to defer to your superior
knowledge of the issue. :-)

Ah. And I suppose you performed an autopsy before claiming that the
Mounties electrocuted him.


Are you able to provide a credible citation that supports your
assertion?

Are you?
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:53:57 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in
:

You apparently have access to information denied to the rest of us.

To which specific information are you referring?

On 2007-10-18 03:59:07 -0700, Larry Dighera said:


It seems many of us have forgotten that we Americans are not like much
of the world; our determination to uphold justice and freedom used to
set us apart, until the current regime in power in this country
started approving of torturing prisoners, warrantless invasion of
privacy, and trampling on our Constitution.

The leader of our country, while he was governor of Texas, put more
"criminals" to death than all the rest of the states combined, IIRC.
Perhaps such disrespect for human life and moral justice is unique to
Texas or a result of shallow insight, but it is reprehensible none the
less. It saddens me to see America losing its way through the
darkness of tyranny and injustice, and joining the unenlightened in
trampling human dignity. It always starts at the top.

Which President did NOT order people tortured, detained without trial,
or snooped upon?

Wiretaps for a long time required no court order at all; they were
regularly used by the likes of Eliot Ness.

Now, perhaps you can give an example of a prisoner that was tortured
and the current administration actually approved of it?
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

I Don't blame the guy that guy for going mad! US Customs or Department Of
Homeland (un)Security held me on 10/14 at that same airport promised to help
me get another flight if they detained me to long and missed my flight,
after I missed my flight almost 2 hours isolated I knew it was going to be a
long day answering dumb questions. Asked for some water after two and a half
hours of sitting I belive the customs agent tried to gave me toilet water.

Where were you born?
Why are you in Canada?
Who was your Client?
Who booked Your Flight?
Where did he live?
Who was the aircraft owner?
Do you have Proof who owned it?
Can we go and inspect this aircraft?
Where did you stay?
Why were you in Lebanon?
What were you doing in Angola & South Africa?
We believe your lying you cannot fly a Cessna 172 or a Piper across the
Atlantic please explain to us how it's done!
Did you Hear or see any anti-American activities when you were in Lebanon?
Why were you in Lebanon again?
Where did you stat & what did you do when you were there?
Are you a part of any organizations?
What's Baja Bush Pilots?
Isn't that an organization?
Do you have any Fire Arms? If So where are they located?
How often do you go to Mexico?
Who's your contact in Nicaragua?
Were you given any envelopes or audio recordings to bring back?
What on there unlabeled disks in your baggage?
Would you mind if we downloaded your address book from your phone and
laptop?
Do you have any plans to overthrow the federal government?
Explain to us again how you fly a 172 over the Atlantic ocean?
Dose the government know you are loading up that much fuel in a airplane?
Have you ever been approached to provide any flight instruction while in
Africa specifically Angola or Senegal?

Here is IBIS (Interagency Border Inspection System) fact sheet and a comment
card have a nice day?

What about my flight home? You need to go talk to your airline we cannot
help you with that good luck snicker snicker snicker!
Sir no your exit is this way? You have to finish airport security?
I need to check my bag!
Sorry sir you cannot check a bag for a flight that has already left! If you
do not continue to airport security we will be forced to detain you untill
monday!

A long day continues, I lost $250.00 worth of tools and stuff that was in my
normally checked bag as it was not allowed to be in carry on baggages becuse
they would not let me check it!!! Security tried to tell me I had to many
carry on's finally let me go after yet another U.S. customs search and
explainiation to supervisor. Alaska was friendly and let me on a later
flight was the last one for the night.

I am about ready to start walking across the border to get back in because
would be way simpler. This makes 4 times I have been arrested going through
U.S. customs to get back in the U.S. In orlando they held every one on the
plane and arrested me in front of all. They still cannot believe a 172 can
fly over the Atlantic, that it's illegal to fly tanked up and they always
ask the same questions.

I should have never taken the Lebanon Trip!!!! But it was Fun... Not worth
this customs hassle though.








"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...

Is airline passenger abuse on the rise as a result of passenger
reaction to airline delays?


http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-col...r.html?ref=rss

Man dies after Taser shock by police at Vancouver airport
Last Updated: Sunday, October 14, 2007 | 5:04 PM ET

A man in his 40s died early Sunday morning after RCMP jolted him with
a Taser at the Vancouver International Airport, police said.

Airport security called the Mounties for assistance after an
unidentified man began pounding on windows and throwing chairs and
computer equipment in the customs area shortly after arriving on an
international flight at 1:30 a.m., Richmond RCMP Sgt. Pierre Lemaitre
told CBC News.

"We arrived and tried to calm the man," Lemaitre said. "We tried
through gestures to get him to put his hands down on the desk . to no
avail."

When he ignored orders to calm down, police used a stun gun on the
man.

The man dropped to the floor and police said it took three officers to
handcuff him. He then lost consciousness and appeared to go into
cardiac arrest and was pronounced dead at the airport, the CBC's Chris
Brown reported.

Few other details have been disclosed other than the man spoke an
Eastern European language and a flight from Poland touched down about
an hour before the incident, Brown said.

Taser devices are controversial because of the dozen North American
deaths resulting from their use. There has been debate about how safe
these devices are when dealing with certain kinds of people who are
delirious or wound up, Brown said.

Police are investigating and a toxicology report will be done to
determine whether there were drugs in the man's system. They will be
interviewing customs officers and flight attendants, Brown reported.

International arrivals were rerouted but there were no delays in
flight schedules.