A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Instrument Flight Rules
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Help understanding Aspen VOR/DME approach



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old August 6th 06, 12:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
SimGuy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default Help understanding Aspen VOR/DME approach

The plate is here-

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://.../05889VDGC.PDF

While trying to fly the approach in the sim I flew to the MAP with
relative ease but had trouble getting low enough to make the runway
without getting too hot. Looking at the plate it seems a drop of 2380'
must be made between MAFMU and the runway in a lateral distance of
1.4NM, this is a descent angle of 15 degrees!

Could someone please confirm this or help with my interpretation of
the chart. I am a PP beginning instrument training.

TIA
  #2  
Old August 6th 06, 12:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,326
Default Help understanding Aspen VOR/DME approach

SimGuy wrote:
The plate is here-

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://.../05889VDGC.PDF

While trying to fly the approach in the sim I flew to the MAP with
relative ease but had trouble getting low enough to make the runway
without getting too hot. Looking at the plate it seems a drop of 2380'
must be made between MAFMU and the runway in a lateral distance of
1.4NM, this is a descent angle of 15 degrees!

Could someone please confirm this or help with my interpretation of
the chart. I am a PP beginning instrument training.

TIA

It is circling only minimums because of the steep descent angle.

It is a form of "Let the buyer beware."
  #3  
Old August 6th 06, 12:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Paul Tomblin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 690
Default Help understanding Aspen VOR/DME approach

In a previous article, said:
The plate is here-
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://.../05889VDGC.PDF

While trying to fly the approach in the sim I flew to the MAP with
relative ease but had trouble getting low enough to make the runway
without getting too hot. Looking at the plate it seems a drop of 2380'
must be made between MAFMU and the runway in a lateral distance of
1.4NM, this is a descent angle of 15 degrees!


Well, yes, if you don't see the runway until the MAP and then want to land
on the runway ahead, you will have a very steep descent. But there are
two factors mitigating that:
- you might see the runway earlier and
- it's a circling approach, so you can circle around airport to descend if
you need to.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
  #4  
Old August 6th 06, 12:18 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,326
Default Help understanding Aspen VOR/DME approach

Paul Tomblin wrote:
In a previous article, said:

The plate is here-
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://.../05889VDGC.PDF

While trying to fly the approach in the sim I flew to the MAP with
relative ease but had trouble getting low enough to make the runway
without getting too hot. Looking at the plate it seems a drop of 2380'
must be made between MAFMU and the runway in a lateral distance of
1.4NM, this is a descent angle of 15 degrees!



Well, yes, if you don't see the runway until the MAP and then want to land
on the runway ahead, you will have a very steep descent. But there are
two factors mitigating that:
- you might see the runway earlier and
- it's a circling approach, so you can circle around airport to descend if
you need to.


At Aspen, circling around the airport is very risky business.
  #5  
Old August 6th 06, 12:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
SimGuy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default Help understanding Aspen VOR/DME approach

On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 23:13:21 +0000 (UTC),
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

In a previous article, said:
The plate is here-
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://.../05889VDGC.PDF

While trying to fly the approach in the sim I flew to the MAP with
relative ease but had trouble getting low enough to make the runway
without getting too hot. Looking at the plate it seems a drop of 2380'
must be made between MAFMU and the runway in a lateral distance of
1.4NM, this is a descent angle of 15 degrees!


Well, yes, if you don't see the runway until the MAP and then want to land
on the runway ahead, you will have a very steep descent. But there are
two factors mitigating that:
- you might see the runway earlier and
- it's a circling approach, so you can circle around airport to descend if
you need to.


Even if the runway is spotted well before the MAP, say at, ALLIX, it's
a very steep descent. At 100kts it is 1140fpm.

I'm not an expert, but this looks like a tough approach; the MA looks
challenging too. Would it even be possible in a 172 or would it would
too under-powered? I imagine you would want something with plenty of
extra oomph.
  #6  
Old August 6th 06, 02:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Bob Gardner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 315
Default Help understanding Aspen VOR/DME approach

You get a clue from the fact that there are no straight-in minimums. Then
there is the "C" in the title. When there is no runway number, one of two
things is evident: either the runway is not aligned with the final approach
course (not in this case, of course), or the descent rate does not meet the
400-foot per mile maximum allowable descent rate. You have to circle.

Bob Gardner

"SimGuy" wrote in message
news
The plate is here-

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://.../05889VDGC.PDF

While trying to fly the approach in the sim I flew to the MAP with
relative ease but had trouble getting low enough to make the runway
without getting too hot. Looking at the plate it seems a drop of 2380'
must be made between MAFMU and the runway in a lateral distance of
1.4NM, this is a descent angle of 15 degrees!

Could someone please confirm this or help with my interpretation of
the chart. I am a PP beginning instrument training.

TIA



  #7  
Old August 6th 06, 02:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Sam Spade
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,326
Default Help understanding Aspen VOR/DME approach

SimGuy wrote:
On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 23:13:21 +0000 (UTC),
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:


In a previous article, said:

The plate is here-
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://.../05889VDGC.PDF

While trying to fly the approach in the sim I flew to the MAP with
relative ease but had trouble getting low enough to make the runway
without getting too hot. Looking at the plate it seems a drop of 2380'
must be made between MAFMU and the runway in a lateral distance of
1.4NM, this is a descent angle of 15 degrees!


Well, yes, if you don't see the runway until the MAP and then want to land
on the runway ahead, you will have a very steep descent. But there are
two factors mitigating that:
- you might see the runway earlier and
- it's a circling approach, so you can circle around airport to descend if
you need to.



Even if the runway is spotted well before the MAP, say at, ALLIX, it's
a very steep descent. At 100kts it is 1140fpm.

I'm not an expert, but this looks like a tough approach; the MA looks
challenging too. Would it even be possible in a 172 or would it would
too under-powered? I imagine you would want something with plenty of
extra oomph.


This airport is death for IFR opes by normally-aspirated piston aircraft.
  #8  
Old August 6th 06, 02:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
John R. Copeland
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 81
Default Help understanding Aspen VOR/DME approach


"SimGuy" wrote in message ...
On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 23:13:21 +0000 (UTC),
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

In a previous article, said:
The plate is here-
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://.../05889VDGC.PDF

While trying to fly the approach in the sim I flew to the MAP with
relative ease but had trouble getting low enough to make the runway
without getting too hot. Looking at the plate it seems a drop of 2380'
must be made between MAFMU and the runway in a lateral distance of
1.4NM, this is a descent angle of 15 degrees!


Well, yes, if you don't see the runway until the MAP and then want to land
on the runway ahead, you will have a very steep descent. But there are
two factors mitigating that:
- you might see the runway earlier and
- it's a circling approach, so you can circle around airport to descend if
you need to.


Even if the runway is spotted well before the MAP, say at, ALLIX, it's
a very steep descent. At 100kts it is 1140fpm.

I'm not an expert, but this looks like a tough approach; the MA looks
challenging too. Would it even be possible in a 172 or would it would
too under-powered? I imagine you would want something with plenty of
extra oomph.


Yes, it *is* a tough approach.
I've flown it for real a few times, and I'm pretty sure it's *possible* to get
down without circling, but I've never actually done that.
(I have excuses, of course. :-))
Approach Control is accustomed to hearing requests for something
like a left 360 to lose altitude during final approach.
They've always let me maneuver however I've needed.

I wouldn't expect to see a loaded 172 making the 14000-ft initial altitude.
I've had 172s higher than that, but only when lightly loaded.

I suggest crossing Red Table slow, with gear and flaps already extended.
Set prop(s) at high RPM to increase drag, too, if applicable.
If you don't do that, you'll need to circle somewhere over the Roaring Fork River.
You don't need to reach the airport before circling, just be in VMC.
Remember that the northeast bank of the river is a high plateau,
and it's a noise-sensitive area that you should try to respect.

If you *do* circle the airport, you will scare the daylights
out of your passengers as you approach the base-to-final turn.
A rock wall fills your windshield!
You can look it up on Google Earth, if you wish, but I can tell you
that it looks worse in real life than it appears on Google Earth.

  #9  
Old August 6th 06, 02:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
SimGuy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12
Default Help understanding Aspen VOR/DME approach



"SimGuy" wrote in message
news
The plate is here-

http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://.../05889VDGC.PDF

While trying to fly the approach in the sim I flew to the MAP with
relative ease but had trouble getting low enough to make the runway
without getting too hot. Looking at the plate it seems a drop of 2380'
must be made between MAFMU and the runway in a lateral distance of
1.4NM, this is a descent angle of 15 degrees!

Could someone please confirm this or help with my interpretation of
the chart. I am a PP beginning instrument training.

TIA


On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 18:09:35 -0700, "Bob Gardner"
wrote:

You get a clue from the fact that there are no straight-in minimums. Then
there is the "C" in the title. When there is no runway number, one of two
things is evident: either the runway is not aligned with the final approach
course (not in this case, of course), or the descent rate does not meet the
400-foot per mile maximum allowable descent rate. You have to circle.

Bob Gardner


(you top-posted so I moved your message)

Thanks, that makes much more sense. But I have a question- the
circling minimum is 10,200', this applies up to the MAP right?
Obviously in circling the runway one would need to get lower.
  #10  
Old August 6th 06, 03:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Jim Macklin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,070
Default Help understanding Aspen VOR/DME approach

Because you must be in visual conditions from the MDA and at
all time while circling. Bob Gardner gave the correct
answer. If you are fly a plane, such as a Helio Courier or
a similar STOL, you can land straight in, but most airplanes
will have to circle to land. Mountain flying is very nice
and also dangerous.



"SimGuy" wrote in message
...
|
|
| "SimGuy" wrote in message
| news | The plate is here-
|
|
http://www.airnav.com/depart?http://.../05889VDGC.PDF
|
| While trying to fly the approach in the sim I flew to
the MAP with
| relative ease but had trouble getting low enough to
make the runway
| without getting too hot. Looking at the plate it seems
a drop of 2380'
| must be made between MAFMU and the runway in a lateral
distance of
| 1.4NM, this is a descent angle of 15 degrees!
|
| Could someone please confirm this or help with my
interpretation of
| the chart. I am a PP beginning instrument training.
|
| TIA
|
| On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 18:09:35 -0700, "Bob Gardner"

| wrote:
|
| You get a clue from the fact that there are no
straight-in minimums. Then
| there is the "C" in the title. When there is no runway
number, one of two
| things is evident: either the runway is not aligned with
the final approach
| course (not in this case, of course), or the descent rate
does not meet the
| 400-foot per mile maximum allowable descent rate. You
have to circle.
|
| Bob Gardner
|
| (you top-posted so I moved your message)
|
| Thanks, that makes much more sense. But I have a question-
the
| circling minimum is 10,200', this applies up to the MAP
right?
| Obviously in circling the runway one would need to get
lower.


 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OLV GPS 36 approach question A Lieberma Instrument Flight Rules 59 August 15th 06 12:32 AM
procedure turns revisited [email protected] Instrument Flight Rules 37 June 20th 06 03:39 AM
VOR/DME approach radio calls Derek Fage Instrument Flight Rules 12 December 9th 04 12:36 AM
VOR/DME Approach Question Chip Jones Instrument Flight Rules 47 August 29th 04 05:03 AM
Canadian holding procedures Derrick Early Instrument Flight Rules 24 July 22nd 04 04:03 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.