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Absolute lowest altitude you can fly (legally)



 
 
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  #11  
Old January 2nd 07, 09:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Mxsmanic
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Default Absolute lowest altitude you can fly (legally)

T o d d P a t t i s t writes:

FAR 91.119


Thanks. It doesn't seem to define a "congested area," though, and I
don't see that in the general definitions, either. I wonder if that
just means Manhattan, or any area within city limits, or what.

"Congested areas" have higher minimums.


Yes, but it doesn't say what makes a place a congested area.

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  #12  
Old January 2nd 07, 09:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Mxsmanic
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Default Absolute lowest altitude you can fly (legally)

writes:

In Canada it's the same, with the proviso attached "except
when taking off or landing."


91-119 also says "Except when necessary for takeoff or landing ..."

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  #13  
Old January 2nd 07, 09:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Doug[_1_]
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Default Absolute lowest altitude you can fly (legally)

I consider it to be congested if it is subdivided into lots (as opposed
to agricultural land).

  #14  
Old January 2nd 07, 11:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Bela P. Havasreti
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Default Absolute lowest altitude you can fly (legally)

On 2 Jan 2007 14:57:01 -0600, T o d d P a t t i s t
wrote:

Mxsmanic wrote:
"Congested areas" have higher minimums.

Yes, but it doesn't say what makes a place a congested area.


When you find out, tell us. The FAA seems happy to not
define it and leave it to the pilot to prove it wasn't
congested when they decide to say it is.


Bingo. The feds hold their cards close to their chest on this
one. It's congested if they say it's congested, and not if they
say it's not. Unfortunately, there is no way for the average
aviator to figure out which is which by reading and interpreting
the regs....

Bela P. Havasreti
  #15  
Old January 3rd 07, 12:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
[email protected]
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Default Absolute lowest altitude you can fly (legally)


T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:
"Congested areas" have higher minimums.

Yes, but it doesn't say what makes a place a congested area.


When you find out, tell us. The FAA seems happy to not
define it and leave it to the pilot to prove it wasn't
congested when they decide to say it is.


LOL.

I recall at one time, people claiming that the yellow portions on a
sectional were the officially "congested" parts.

Kev

  #16  
Old January 3rd 07, 12:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
BT
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Default Absolute lowest altitude you can fly (legally)

if you know the answer.. why do you ask..

"Mxsmanic" wrote in message
...
writes:

In Canada it's the same, with the proviso attached "except
when taking off or landing."


91-119 also says "Except when necessary for takeoff or landing ..."

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  #17  
Old January 3rd 07, 01:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Andrew Sarangan
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Default Absolute lowest altitude you can fly (legally)

The minimum safe altitude is not dictated by the airspace, but by
whether you are VFR or IFR, and whether or not you are flying over
congested areas. For details see:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov and go to 14CFR Part 91 section 119.



Mxsmanic wrote:
What regulations determine the absolute lowest altitude you can fly
above the ground in the U.S.? I understand that the area just above
the ground is usually Class G outside airports, and it only goes up to
700 or 1200 feet most of the time ... which implies that you can
actually fly at 500 feet AGL if you want. But is there some other
regulation that prohibits aircraft from flying this low, in general or
in certain conditions/areas?

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  #18  
Old January 3rd 07, 01:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
[email protected]
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Default Absolute lowest altitude you can fly (legally)

Bela P. Havasreti wrote:
Bingo. The feds hold their cards close to their chest on this
one. It's congested if they say it's congested, and not if they
say it's not. Unfortunately, there is no way for the average
aviator to figure out which is which by reading and interpreting
the regs....


Exactly. And if you have an accident or someone complains, then it can
easily become "congested" :-)

Now if Mxsmanic says "well that's stupid, how does anyone know?", then
he's right. It's one of the zillion little you-know-it when-you-see-it
kind of rules in aviation. Like the vague "familiar with all
available information" rule. (14 CFR 91.103)

===

That said, here's some digging on "congested areas" that sheds a little
light:

Letter from a state aviation counsel:

http://www.aopa.org/epilot/redir.cfm?adid=8604

"There is no standard definition of what is a 'congested area' or 'open
air assembly of persons', but case law has indicated that a subdivision
of homes constitutes a congested area, as does a small rural town"

===

"General Aviation Operations Inspector's Handbook, Order 8700.1".

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/e...spectors/8700/

From that (btw, check out Chapter 56, ramp inspections), we go to

Chapter 102. Although it's about helicopter load operations, it seems
to have the only definitions I've seen, vague as they a

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/e...a/2_102_00.pdf

"The congested nature of an area is defined by what exists on the
surface, not the size of the area. While the presence of the
nonparticipating public is the most important determination of
congested, the area may also be congested with structures or objects.
An area considered congested for airplane operations could be equally
congested for helicopters. If an airplane flying over a congested area
at less than 1,000 feet above ground level (AGL) is in violation of 14
CFR § 91.119(b), the area may also be a congested area for a
helicopter conducting external load operations. However, the most
important word in this concept is 'over.' Helicopters can operate over
relatively small uncongested areas because of their maneuvering
abilities.

(b) Densely Populated Area. Title 14 CFR §§ 91.313 and 133.45(d) use
the term "densely populated" area. Those areas of a city, town, or
settlement that contain a large number of occupied homes, factories,
stores, schools, and other structures are considered densely populated.
Additionally, a densely populated area may not contain any buildings
but could consist of a large gathering of persons on a beach, at an
airshow, at a ball game, or at a fairground. NOTE: While the presence
of the nonparticipating public is the most important determination of
congested, this definition also applies to structures, buildings and
personal property. The congested nature of an area is defined by what
exists on the surface, not the size of the area."

Cheers,
Kev

  #19  
Old January 3rd 07, 01:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Roger[_4_]
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Default Absolute lowest altitude you can fly (legally)

On 2 Jan 2007 10:36:53 -0800, "Robert M. Gary"
wrote:


wrote:
Above open water, you can fly as low as you want, as long as you don't
buzz a boat or swimmer, etc.


Same thing over land as long as you maintain the FAR clearances.


That was always very frustrating for me when I was flying sea planes.
Even though technically for landing you can get closer our OPs Specs
required us to stay above 500feet w/i 1/2 mile of any person, structure


Around here that'd be impossible. On top of that it's not just water
skiiers, but boats and jet skies(personal watercraft) try to see just
how close they can get.

of vessel. That made it hard sometimes to land. We'd fly final weaving
around to avoid getting close to water skiiers. Sometimes they'd come
right up to us as we're taking off. Very frustrating. On a giant lake
these little skiiers would seek you out. Sometimes, flying between the
canyon walls setting up for landing, you'd come upon a boat sitting
there fishing. Nothing you can do about that.


Yup! I loved that opening scene from "Always". :-))

-Robert

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
  #20  
Old January 3rd 07, 01:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.student
Roger[_4_]
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Posts: 677
Default Absolute lowest altitude you can fly (legally)

On 2 Jan 2007 11:12:18 -0800, wrote:


T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
Mxsmanic wrote:

What regulations determine the absolute lowest altitude you can fly
above the ground in the U.S.?


It requires a minimum of:
"An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open
water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the
aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any
person, vessel, vehicle, or structure."

"Congested areas" have higher minimums.


In Canada it's the same, with the proviso attached "except
when taking off or landing." It would be impossible to land or take off
at most airports if we had to stay 500' away from any person,
structure, vehicle or vessel.
Low flying kills people. There are unmarked wires, big birds,


It's just Darwinism at its best.

unmarked or unlighted towers of all sorts. An engine failure at low
altitude means no options but pretty much straight ahead into whatever
is there. We've experienced several birdstrikes near the ground, and
just west of here is a 100' tower that must be under the minimum for
lighting, and it blends in really well with the ground. Every so often
someone snags a powerline they didn't see.

Dan

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
 




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