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UK planning to evict N-registered aircraft



 
 
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  #31  
Old August 29th 05, 06:17 PM
xyzzy
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Chris wrote:

"xyzzy" wrote in message
...

wrote:


Bret Ludwig wrote:


Pardon, but the US laws don't impose the onerous requirements that your
government is planning on implementing, and even though our FAA can be
quite
incompetent and pigheaded when they want to be, they're not nearly as
anal
as the folks the UK pilots have to deal with.

Pardon, but the Liberian laws don't impose the onerous requirements
that your government has implemented, and even though the Liberian
government can be quite incompetent and pigheaded when they want to
be, they're not nearly as anal as the folks the US ship owners have to
deal with.

What are these onerous requirements?


Minimum wage, OSHA, union rules, workman's comp, to name just a few?

FWIW the US does restrict foreign-registered ships and planes from
carrying domestic passengers. A Thai Airlines flight that originates at
JFK and stops at LAX to pick up more pax and fuel cannot sell a ticket
for the JFK-LAX segment.


Not sure this is just a US restriction. On the rec.travel.air newsgroup
(where I haven't hung out in a few years so this may changed) they used to
refer to this as the "fifth freedom" and I don't think any country allows
it.



The UK allows it, that I do know. Its possible for example to buy a ticket
on say air India from London to New York, on a service that started in
Mumbai.


But that's not a "domestic" flight. It's not analogous to the NY-LA
situation described above.

  #33  
Old August 29th 05, 07:39 PM
xyzzy
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Peter wrote:

xyzzy wrote


Not sure this is just a US restriction. On the rec.travel.air newsgroup
(where I haven't hung out in a few years so this may changed) they used
to refer to this as the "fifth freedom" and I don't think any country
allows it.



Isn't this called "cabotage"?

It is legal in the EU, as of recently.


For anyone, or just carriers from other EU countries?

--
"You can support the troops but not the president"
--Representative Tom Delay (R-TX), during the Kosovo war.

  #34  
Old August 29th 05, 11:18 PM
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Chris wrote:
"xyzzy" wrote in message
...
wrote:

FWIW the US does restrict foreign-registered ships and planes from
carrying domestic passengers. A Thai Airlines flight that originates at
JFK and stops at LAX to pick up more pax and fuel cannot sell a ticket
for the JFK-LAX segment.


Not sure this is just a US restriction. On the rec.travel.air newsgroup
(where I haven't hung out in a few years so this may changed) they used to
refer to this as the "fifth freedom" and I don't think any country allows
it.


The UK allows it, that I do know. Its possible for example to buy a ticket
on say air India from London to New York, on a service that started in
Mumbai.


This is not cabotage and is allowed in the US as well. I used to travel
from JFK to FRA frequently and you could often get a great deal on
Singapore Airlines (one of the world's best) because they would fly
JFK-FRA-SKG and while the FRA-SKG segment was always full there were
often a few dozen empty seats on the JFK-FRA leg which they would fire
sale for 1/3rd of the price on DL or LH.

Cabotage would be as for the example I gave above where the foreign
flight touches down in two or more US cities such as BKK-LAX-JFK, and
sells a ticket for the LAX-JFK segment. The only people this benefits
are US airlines, who at this point deserve only a little more sympathy
than French truck drivers. I supported the post-9/11 bailouts because
that was an extraordinary event and defense/nat'l security issues are
the most essential purpose of the whole federal shebang, but that's
behind us. The only people benefiting from the current system are
sleazebag airline execs who get paid millions to lose billions. Time to
let the free market sort things out, IMHO.

-cwk.

  #35  
Old August 29th 05, 11:52 PM
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Bob Moore wrote:
wrote
FWIW the US does restrict foreign-registered ships and planes from
carrying domestic passengers. A Thai Airlines flight that originates
at JFK and stops at LAX to pick up more pax and fuel cannot sell a
ticket for the JFK-LAX segment. Similarly, cruises to Alaska start in
Vancouver rather than Seattle because the ships are all registered
under flags of convenience.


Eighth Freedom - This is also called cabotage and almost no country permits
it. Airline cabotage is the carriage of air traffic that originates and
terminates within the boundaries of a given country by an air carrier of
another country. An example of this would be an airline like Virgin
Atlantic Airways operating flights between Chicago and New Orleans.


Yes, and a rancid little bit of protectionism it is.

If permitted, the primary effect of cabotage in the US would likly be
on transcontinental flights, particularly where routes from LAX/SFO/SEA
to Europe run over the US northeast. Secondarily would be southeast
US-Asia routes which often cross over SEA. Passengers strongly prefer
direct flights and modern equipment means you can connect nearly any
city pair in the world if you can fill the seats. Of course, allowing
cabotage would open new opportunities, since you could take an A-380,
start in LAX, then JFK, thence CDG. Allowing the sale of tickets on the
LAX-JFK segment makes this a lot easier to pull off. Ultimately the US
consumer benefits as LAX-JFK tickets get cheaper, and there are more
flights from LAX and JFK to CDG.

Practically speaking, this is mostly an issue for the US since there
are very few other places where geography and politics intersects
properly. There is nothing preventing Delta from operating service from
FRA-LHR-JFK, and selling the FRA-LHR segment, except that passengers
going from FRA-JFK don't want to stop in London, even if it is a
marvelous city. The only other places I can think of where this would
really make sense would be Japan (Sapporo-Osaka) or China
(Beijing-Shanghai-Guangzhou). Everywhere else you go, you're crossing
national barriers and cabotage is no longer the obstacle.

Fair is fair, and if we allow this, we ought to lean on the EU and
other countries to allow US-owned/operated airlines more access to
local markets. Southwest or Scaretran would no doubt love to get in on
Japan, China, or Europe, and that would mean more Boeing airframes, GE
engines, and Rockwell avionics being made here.

-cwk.

  #36  
Old August 30th 05, 02:21 PM
Gig 601XL Builder
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"Chris" wrote in message
...

Not sure this is just a US restriction. On the rec.travel.air newsgroup
(where I haven't hung out in a few years so this may changed) they used
to refer to this as the "fifth freedom" and I don't think any country
allows it.


The UK allows it, that I do know. Its possible for example to buy a ticket
on say air India from London to New York, on a service that started in
Mumbai.




Last time I checked, and I could be wrong but, aren't London and New York in
to different countries?


  #37  
Old August 30th 05, 02:23 PM
Gig 601XL Builder
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"Peter" wrote in message
...

xyzzy wrote

Not sure this is just a US restriction. On the rec.travel.air newsgroup
(where I haven't hung out in a few years so this may changed) they used
to refer to this as the "fifth freedom" and I don't think any country
allows it.


Isn't this called "cabotage"?

It is legal in the EU, as of recently.


Is it completely legal or just within the EU among EU airlines.


  #38  
Old August 30th 05, 06:23 PM
Jose
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calling it indeed the fifth freedom.

What are the first four freedoms? (and what are the ones after that?)

I've never heard the expression before.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #39  
Old August 30th 05, 06:54 PM
xyzzy
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Jose wrote:

calling it indeed the fifth freedom.



What are the first four freedoms? (and what are the ones after that?)

I've never heard the expression before.


From:

http://www.icao.int/icao/en/chicago_conf/intro.html

These Five Freedoms of the Air a

Freedom of peaceful transit.
Freedom of non-traffic stop (to refuel, repair, or refuge).
Freedom to take traffic from the homeland to any country.
Freedom to bring traffic from any country to the homeland.
Freedom to pick up and discharge traffic at intermediate points.

--
"You can support the troops but not the president"
--Representative Tom Delay (R-TX), during the Kosovo war.

  #40  
Old August 30th 05, 08:57 PM
George Patterson
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karel wrote:

But ISTR Varig carried people from Paris to Amsterdam
on their DC10/MD11 coming from Brazil.


Since Paris and Amsterdam are in different countries, cabotage regulations
wouldn't apply.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.
 




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