Another glider crash?

Discussing this incident yesterday at Moriarty, someone related the
story of an acquaintance who placed a tennis ball on the spoiler handle
when the gear was up. When he lowered the gear, he moved the ball to
the gear handle. Worked for him.

We also had a gear up landing the day before that discussion. The pilot
got low south of the field and was preparing to land on RWY 36. He got
a small thermal which boosted him to 300' AGL and decided to extend to
base for RWY 26. He told me he was thinking "Oh Boy! This is gonna be
my best landing ever!", and then hearing a scraping sound...

On 9/22/2015 4:15 AM, Jim White wrote:
I have watched two incidents of ASW15s ground effect flying across the
airfield with brakes shut and wheel going up and down. Quite amazing
performance!

An ASW15 pilot I once knew used to place a rubber band around the brake
handle. When he deployed the brake he thought "what's that rubber band
doing on the handle" and it reminded him to put the wheel down! A bit like
tying a knot in your tie.

I guess the converse is true. If it ain't got the rubber band on it then it
isn't the brake handle.


--
Dan, 5J

Once, long ago, I nearly got my hand crushed when about to attach a cable
to an ASW20 (belly-hook only). The pilot retracted the U/C when he meant
ot check the air-brakes. The Pilot concerned was a current national
champion, practicing in the glider he was about to fly in the World
Championships. He was also an experienced instructor. His day job was
Airline Captain. Schlecher's practice of putting all the levers on the
left was, in my opinion, not a good idea, it produced more problems than
does changing hands to retract the gear.

At 10:20 22 September 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 3:45:09 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
The spoiler handle hangs down from a=20
horizontal rod and rotates freely. To use=20
it you normally rotate it counterclockwise=20
about 90=B0. =20
=20
The gear handle sticks straight up lower=20
down and rotates clockwise just enough=20
to get out of the stop.=20
=20
AS seems to have put effort in designing=20
decent ergonomics, but dehydration and=20
unfamiliarity with type can trump that.=20

There was an over run accident some years ago involving a CFI-G in an
ASW-2=
4. The spoilers never came out. Later, it was concluded that the pilot
wa=
s pulling on the release handle (a bit like an early 1-26!).

Schleicher cockpit ergonomics are wonderful. In the 20, the gear, flap
and=
spoiler handles are all on the left and use the same shape grip, but the
c=
ontrols feel and move in completely different ways. So when an accident
lik=
e this happens, suspicions tend toward pilot incapacitation as the root
cau=
se. The ASW-24 example shows that moving the gear handle to the right
side=
of the cockpit isn't a completely effective solution.

Back in my student days, some=20
instructors told me to look at the spoilers=20
on the downwind check. If you're moving=20
the correct handle you will see them=20
move.

We teach this. One part of the exercise is to discover what "1/2
spoilers"=
(determined by looking at the spoilers) requires in terms of control
posit=
ion and effort (varies by glider type). This thread illustrates another
re=
ason to do it.

Evan Ludeman

Edit: That was 700' AGL, not 300' AGL.

On 9/22/2015 7:18 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Discussing this incident yesterday at Moriarty, someone related the
story of an acquaintance who placed a tennis ball on the spoiler
handle when the gear was up. When he lowered the gear, he moved the
ball to the gear handle. Worked for him.

We also had a gear up landing the day before that discussion. The
pilot got low south of the field and was preparing to land on RWY 36.
He got a small thermal which boosted him to 300' AGL and decided to
extend to base for RWY 26. He told me he was thinking "Oh Boy! This
is gonna be my best landing ever!", and then hearing a scraping sound...

On 9/22/2015 4:15 AM, Jim White wrote:
I have watched two incidents of ASW15s ground effect flying across the
airfield with brakes shut and wheel going up and down. Quite amazing
performance!

An ASW15 pilot I once knew used to place a rubber band around the brake
handle. When he deployed the brake he thought "what's that rubber band
doing on the handle" and it reminded him to put the wheel down! A bit like
tying a knot in your tie.

I guess the converse is true. If it ain't got the rubber band on it then it
isn't the brake handle.


--
Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

Of the 5 gliders I've owned, only the ASW-19b had the gear handle on the
left side. I never liked that and it's never been a problem changing
hands on the stick to lower the gear with the other gliders.

On 9/22/2015 7:31 AM, Chris Rollings wrote:
Once, long ago, I nearly got my hand crushed when about to attach a cable
to an ASW20 (belly-hook only). The pilot retracted the U/C when he meant
ot check the air-brakes. The Pilot concerned was a current national
champion, practicing in the glider he was about to fly in the World
Championships. He was also an experienced instructor. His day job was
Airline Captain. Schlecher's practice of putting all the levers on the
left was, in my opinion, not a good idea, it produced more problems than
does changing hands to retract the gear.

At 10:20 22 September 2015, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 3:45:09 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
The spoiler handle hangs down from a=20
horizontal rod and rotates freely. To use=20
it you normally rotate it counterclockwise=20
about 90=B0. =20
=20
The gear handle sticks straight up lower=20
down and rotates clockwise just enough=20
to get out of the stop.=20
=20
AS seems to have put effort in designing=20
decent ergonomics, but dehydration and=20
unfamiliarity with type can trump that.=20
There was an over run accident some years ago involving a CFI-G in an
ASW-2=
4. The spoilers never came out. Later, it was concluded that the pilot
wa=
s pulling on the release handle (a bit like an early 1-26!).

Schleicher cockpit ergonomics are wonderful. In the 20, the gear, flap
and=
spoiler handles are all on the left and use the same shape grip, but the
c=
ontrols feel and move in completely different ways. So when an accident
lik=
e this happens, suspicions tend toward pilot incapacitation as the root
cau=
se. The ASW-24 example shows that moving the gear handle to the right
side=
of the cockpit isn't a completely effective solution.

Back in my student days, some=20
instructors told me to look at the spoilers=20
on the downwind check. If you're moving=20
the correct handle you will see them=20
move.
We teach this. One part of the exercise is to discover what "1/2
spoilers"=
(determined by looking at the spoilers) requires in terms of control
posit=
ion and effort (varies by glider type). This thread illustrates another
re=
ason to do it.

Evan Ludeman


--
Dan, 5J

We also had a gear up landing the day before that discussion. The pilot got
low south of the field and was preparing to land on RWY 36. He got a small
thermal which boosted him to 300' AGL and decided to extend to base for RWY
26. He told me he was thinking "Oh Boy! This is gonna be my best landing
ever!", and then hearing a scraping sound...

I have watched two incidents of ASW15s ground effect flying across the
airfield with brakes shut and wheel going up and down. Quite amazing
performance!

An ASW15 pilot I once knew used to place a rubber band around the brake
handle. When he deployed the brake he thought "what's that rubber band
doing on the handle" and it reminded him to put the wheel down! A bit like
tying a knot in your tie.

1) Every place at which I've ever taken instruction or "BFR" (a U.S. thing)
has taught the "visual spoiler check" as part of the pattern checklist, so I
kinda hoped it was "the standard" throughout the U.S. (a country of
unrepentant individualists). Evidently not?

2) Having heard it was possible (as in people had done it already) to confuse
handles (e.g. typically, gear for spoilers), I believed; the proposition
seemed plausible. Upon crossing over to the dark side of large-deflection
landing flaps instead of spoilers, I still believed it was plausible, but
another part of my brain simultaneously concluded it was unlikely, given the
"unmistakably differing" effects of flap vs. spoiler deployment. Nonetheless,
I seem to remember a retractable-gear 1-35 crunch that *may* have involved
handle confusion, despite the 1-35's "unmistakably/ergonomically conflicting"
flap/gear handles/actuation. If it happens it must be possible has long been
one of my personal maxims. :-)

3) The gear-up scenario above may well be THE number one reason for glider
gear-ups, i.e. focus on "something else" to the detriment of Joe Pilot's
routine procedures. The very first time I "stretched a glide" back to the
pattern in a retractable gear glider, about the time I concluded I was "good
for at least a straight-in" I also ran my pattern checklist (at ~300' agl).
Yup. I'd completely forgotten about the gear to that point. Talk about shock
and alarm!

Points being, those simple things your instructor (so it's hoped) taught you
about checklists and verifying one's actions, aren't only based on others'
prior mistakes, but they *work!*

Bob - no gear-ups or handle confusions yet - W.

I flew that 20B for many years, as standard, as built for Waibel who did the test flight on it. Never saw the need for winglets or anything else ...it went like stink, frogless.
The handles all being on the left seemed to me to be a lot easier than having the gear handle on the right. One hand on the stick, one hand on the handles.
Only confusion I ever had was flying one task with the gear down the entire time. Radio was on the fritz so did not get calls from friendly pilots to check it. Finished task, pulled up into downwind and put gear "down" and it all went quiet. Foolish feeling, so replaced gear handle in correct down position and landed.
Everybody at Fairfield was very nice, little ribbing, some thank yous for giving them an added handicap.
h







On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 3:13:54 PM UTC-6, Ron Gleason wrote:
Saratoga NY, news report here

http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s391... dium=twitter

On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 4:51:53 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, September 21, 2015 at 6:39:53 AM UTC-7, Tim Hanke wrote:
On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:45:48 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
"Deputies say Szymanowski was coming in too fast. He tried landing twice, and on the third try, came up short."

What?

The pilot was flying an ASWW-19, which per my understanding has a gear handle located adjacent to the spoiler handle. Several witnesses on the ground watched the landing gear go up and down as the pilot over flew the entire length of the runway, turned around, and then overshoot the runway. Not sure if dehydration was an issue here? may never know? Thoughts and prayers with the pilot and his family.

I doubt dehydration. More likely distraction followed by tunnel vision. unfortunately a common thing. Something distracted the pilot (such as another aircraft in the pattern) resulted on pulling on the wrong handle without noticing. Next come the tunnel vision where the pilot is convinced something is wrong with the spoilers and keep trying to deploy them.
Same thing happened at Truckee few years ago and the pilot ended up at the bottom of the cliff after going the full length of the runway in each direction, luckily unhurt but glider destroyed.

Ramy
I second tunnel vision. A dear friend did exactly that in a DG 300 about ten or so years ago. Gear handle just under the spoiler handle. Overshot a very long runway and fearing that he will hit the embankment at the end, put a wingtip into the ground, ground looping it, destroying the ship and hurting his back.
The moral of the story is that it too can happen to you. What came out of many hours of hanger talk and digesting this unfortunate incident; "look down at what handle you about to pull before actually pulling it".

Visually checking both spoilers as part of the pre-landing check was drilled into me when I was being trained in the 1980s and I have never landed a glider since then without doing this. The reason is not only to check that you have the proper handle but also that they deploy symmetrically. In unflapped ships, I was also taught to keep my hand on the dive brake lever until safely on the ground.

I have witnessed two cases of mistaken handles - one in which a flapped two-seater flew the entire length of the strip with its flaps waggling instead of dive brakes.

Mike

One day, a bit dehydrated, maybe not enough O2 I had a very difficult time deciding if the gear in my 24 was up or down. Could not quite read the sticker. I had over 100 hours in this glider and it is obvious, handle forward, gear down, handle back gear up. Nevertheless, I was not sure finally figured it out landed ok. So I have put a green paint dot on the gear down and locked and a red one on gear up position. This was the same fight I landed with a big head ache and forgot to dump water ballast, nor did I fly a faster pattern for the higher wing loading, could have been a real bad day! We all can have a bad day so I have tried to make the cockpit"stupid" friendlier. I also put a stinclied landing checklist on the panel. Stay safe out there and perhaps use this thread to reevaluate anything that can make your flying safer.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

On Tuesday, September 22, 2015 at 12:15:54 PM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
So I have put a green paint dot on the gear down and locked and a red one on gear up position.

Wow - a simple, elegant addition. Think I'll do the same.

P3