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#11
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ASH 26E VS DG 808C
Eric, can you explain span loading as opposed to wing loading?
On Oct 21, 8:13 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote: Roger wrote: Eric, some places fly all year and if the pilot is 200 - 250 lbs the wing loading in a motor glider is near max.Have you considered a sustainer glider instead of a self-launcher? That removes 100 pounds or so. I've found my 18 meter glider climbs as well as a typical 15 meter glider that has less wing loading. Span loading is an important number, so don't go just by wing loading. In the winter this means the non-engine folks have a much easier time staying aloft, and the motor glider in on the ground watching the pure gliders having fun.Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able to do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare leave the field. The engine is your portable towplane, and even in weak conditions you might find, as I have, that you don't need it as much as you thought you would. Starting the engine might be the of competition or badge flight, but it's not the end of the flight or the fun. A few of my most memorable flights involved weak conditions and low cloud bases, but I had good soaring flights because I knew it wasn't going to end in a retrieve. Not that retrieves can't be fun, but after 20 years of them before I got the motorglider, my wife and I aren't missing them much! To the 26E, 808 list I'd add the Antares, and the Apis and Silent gliders (electric and gas versions). Lots more choices today than 10 years ago. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org |
#12
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ASH 26E VS DG 808C
Roger wrote:
So which one would you choose today? The Antares is much more expensive so that limits the market. What would you like in the next generation of MG. It's been 12 years since I chose my glider, and I haven't kept up with the details of the other gliders. So far, none seem to offer enough improvement to make the effort to investigate them carefully. The electric gliders are very promising: The Antares is expensive but high performance; the electric Silent and Apis are much cheaper but with lesser performance. Would I be happy with a smaller, cheaper, lighter glider that's less trouble on the ground but not as long-legged in the air? I don't know! I'd love to fly each of them for several flights... On Oct 21, 8:13 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote: Roger wrote: Eric, some places fly all year and if the pilot is 200 - 250 lbs the wing loading in a motor glider is near max.Have you considered a sustainer glider instead of a self-launcher? That removes 100 pounds or so. I've found my 18 meter glider climbs as well as a typical 15 meter glider that has less wing loading. Span loading is an important number, so don't go just by wing loading. In the winter this means the non-engine folks have a much easier time staying aloft, and the motor glider in on the ground watching the pure gliders having fun.Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able to do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare leave the field. The engine is your portable towplane, and even in weak conditions you might find, as I have, that you don't need it as much as you thought you would. Starting the engine might be the of competition or badge flight, but it's not the end of the flight or the fun. A few of my most memorable flights involved weak conditions and low cloud bases, but I had good soaring flights because I knew it wasn't going to end in a retrieve. Not that retrieves can't be fun, but after 20 years of them before I got the motorglider, my wife and I aren't missing them much! To the 26E, 808 list I'd add the Antares, and the Apis and Silent gliders (electric and gas versions). Lots more choices today than 10 years ago. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org |
#13
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ASH 26E VS DG 808C
Roger wrote:
Eric, can you explain span loading as opposed to wing loading? Span loading = weight/span. I don't have a good technical reference for it, but it accounts for aspect ratio effects to some extent. Consider two gliders with the same wing area and weight, giving them the same wing loading. The one with the higher aspect ratio, and consequently lower span loading because the span is greater, will thermal better. It's weight could be increased until they climbed the same, but it would now have a higher wing loading and cruise better. I mentioned it because it seemed likely you were thinking of 15 meter ships flying around empty in the weak winter conditions at about 7.5 lbs/sq ft, and wondering how an 18 meter glider could possibly keep up at 8.5 lbs/sq. On Oct 21, 8:13 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote: Roger wrote: Eric, some places fly all year and if the pilot is 200 - 250 lbs the wing loading in a motor glider is near max.Have you considered a sustainer glider instead of a self-launcher? That removes 100 pounds or so. I've found my 18 meter glider climbs as well as a typical 15 meter glider that has less wing loading. Span loading is an important number, so don't go just by wing loading. In the winter this means the non-engine folks have a much easier time staying aloft, and the motor glider in on the ground watching the pure gliders having fun.Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able to do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare leave the field. The engine is your portable towplane, and even in weak conditions you might find, as I have, that you don't need it as much as you thought you would. Starting the engine might be the of competition or badge flight, but it's not the end of the flight or the fun. A few of my most memorable flights involved weak conditions and low cloud bases, but I had good soaring flights because I knew it wasn't going to end in a retrieve. Not that retrieves can't be fun, but after 20 years of them before I got the motorglider, my wife and I aren't missing them much! To the 26E, 808 list I'd add the Antares, and the Apis and Silent gliders (electric and gas versions). Lots more choices today than 10 years ago. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org |
#14
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ASH 26E VS DG 808C
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message news:JlB_g.416$ke4.139@trndny02... Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able to do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare leave the field. Ah Hah.....so you DO admit that having the motor is an advantage! ;-) Casey KC |
#15
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ASH 26E VS DG 808C
In article , Marc
Ramsey writes wrote: Plus these designs are getting near the end of their life span, what would you like to see in the next self launch glider? Well, they could start by figuring out a way to sell them for less than I paid for my house... When you think of the thousands of hours of skill labour that goes into a modern glass sailplane, you wonder how they can sell them so cheap. -- Mike Lindsay |
#16
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ASH 26E VS DG 808C
Mike Lindsay wrote:
wrote: Plus these designs are getting near the end of their life span, what would you like to see in the next self launch glider? Well, they could start by figuring out a way to sell them for less than I paid for my house... When you think of the thousands of hours of skill labour that goes into a modern glass sailplane, you wonder how they can sell them so cheap. Then you look more closely at some of the design details and you begin to understand. ....almost any water ballast system ....most self-launch engine installations GC |
#17
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ASH 26E VS DG 808C
Kilo Charlie wrote:
"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message news:JlB_g.416$ke4.139@trndny02... Start the engine, climb a bit, and go back to soaring. You will be able to do cross-country flights on the days the unpowered folk don't dare leave the field. Ah Hah.....so you DO admit that having the motor is an advantage! ;-) Admit? Admit? I've claimed and promoted that for 10 years! It's not an advantage for everyone, however, as I discuss in detail in my "Guide" (see below for a copy). I do a lot more soaring in a lot more places because I have a self-launching sailplane; unfortunately, the cost (mostly) and complexity of motorgliders keep plenty of pilots from joining me. The electric powered gliders are addressing the complexity issue, but the not the cost. -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org |
#18
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ASH 26E VS DG 808C
Roger wrote:
What about the ablity with the 808 C comp to now fly at 10.4 Lbs verus the 26's max wing loading of 9.2 Lbs, For most of my flying, the 8.2 lbs my ASH 26 E flies at is just about right. I often take off early, so even the 9.2 lbs I could go to isn't useful, and most flights seem to include a slow part where I might dump the ballast anyway. Also, I'm too lazy to bother putting in water for the slight advantage it might give, except at contests or speed record attempts. A pilot flying the eastern ridges might prefer the extra lb of wing loading, also one that flew in areas with routinely strong conditions, or flew only in the heart of the day, and didn't mind putting the ballast in. the stearable tail wheel The ASH 26 E has an excellent steerable tailwheel for hard/firm surfaces. For with _very_ soft fields, I suggest using the interchangeable fixed pneumatic wheel or using the tail dolly to move it into position. and the ability to fill the gas tank from a truck or gas pump? I've always found it convenient to fill from a 5 gallon gas can I carry in the glider (as do most DG owners) using the supplied electric pump (this can carried or mounted permanently in the glider). I've never wanted to move the glider to a pump or have a truck come to it. If you need to fuel the glider at an airport where a can is not available, you can easily carry a suitable container. In 12 seasons and 500 flights, I've never been in this situation. I too think the 26 is "prettier". Does the large canopy of the DG cause relection and leak when it shrinks do the the cold from altitude? On Oct 21, 7:05 pm, "bumper" wrote: I did a lot of comparing and spent another 2 hours going back and forth between the 26E and the 808B. The comparing included talking to people who worked on both these gliders, including Tom Stowers and Larry Mansberger (of composite fame). I chose the 26E. Subsequent to this, about 4 years ago, I've had much more experience and had the chance to really "go over" my glider, and look at the competition too. Even with the "C" version now available, I'd make the same decision again. Of course, it's to be expected that an owner will tend to favor the machine he has invested in - - I guess. The 26 is not perfect, but it's the very best 18 meter self-launch available, both mechanically, and esthetically too. bumper wrote in ooglegroups.com... I know the comparison of ASH 26 VS DG 800's has been done, but now that DG has come out with a DG 808C I was wondering what self launching guys think? The new 808C allows wing loading of up to 10.2 Lbs compared to 9.2 for the ASH 26? The new DG also has NOAH exit assist and stall warning plus automated engine extraction and stowage. If you were in the market today for a self launch which one would you choose? Plus these designs are getting near the end of their life span, what would you like to see in the next self launch glider? -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org |
#19
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ASH 26E VS DG 808C
So we have heard form two ASH 26 owners. Any DG 800-808 owners want to
opine? I have heard the build quality is better on the ASH than the DG, how so? It seems to me that Western flyers would want the extra wing loading in the summer. How do the cockpits compare between the DG and ASH? What about sealing from the factory? Allison On Oct 22, 9:04 am, Eric Greenwell wrote: Roger wrote: What about the ablity with the 808 C comp to now fly at 10.4 Lbs verus the 26's max wing loading of 9.2 Lbs,For most of my flying, the 8.2 lbs my ASH 26 E flies at is just about right. I often take off early, so even the 9.2 lbs I could go to isn't useful, and most flights seem to include a slow part where I might dump the ballast anyway. Also, I'm too lazy to bother putting in water for the slight advantage it might give, except at contests or speed record attempts. A pilot flying the eastern ridges might prefer the extra lb of wing loading, also one that flew in areas with routinely strong conditions, or flew only in the heart of the day, and didn't mind putting the ballast in. the stearable tail wheelThe ASH 26 E has an excellent steerable tailwheel for hard/firm surfaces. For with _very_ soft fields, I suggest using the interchangeable fixed pneumatic wheel or using the tail dolly to move it into position. and the ability to fill the gas tank from a truck or gas pump?I've always found it convenient to fill from a 5 gallon gas can I carry in the glider (as do most DG owners) using the supplied electric pump (this can carried or mounted permanently in the glider). I've never wanted to move the glider to a pump or have a truck come to it. If you need to fuel the glider at an airport where a can is not available, you can easily carry a suitable container. In 12 seasons and 500 flights, I've never been in this situation. I too think the 26 is "prettier". Does the large canopy of the DG cause relection and leak when it shrinks do the the cold from altitude? On Oct 21, 7:05 pm, "bumper" wrote: I did a lot of comparing and spent another 2 hours going back and forth between the 26E and the 808B. The comparing included talking to people who worked on both these gliders, including Tom Stowers and Larry Mansberger (of composite fame). I chose the 26E. Subsequent to this, about 4 years ago, I've had much more experience and had the chance to really "go over" my glider, and look at the competition too. Even with the "C" version now available, I'd make the same decision again. Of course, it's to be expected that an owner will tend to favor the machine he has invested in - - I guess. The 26 is not perfect, but it's the very best 18 meter self-launch available, both mechanically, and esthetically too. bumper wrote in ooglegroups.com... I know the comparison of ASH 26 VS DG 800's has been done, but now that DG has come out with a DG 808C I was wondering what self launching guys think? The new 808C allows wing loading of up to 10.2 Lbs compared to 9.2 for the ASH 26? The new DG also has NOAH exit assist and stall warning plus automated engine extraction and stowage. If you were in the market today for a self launch which one would you choose? Plus these designs are getting near the end of their life span, what would you like to see in the next self launch glider?-- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation websitewww.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" atwww.motorglider.org |
#20
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ASH 26E VS DG 808C
At 04:30 22 October 2006, Roger wrote:
So which one would you choose today? The Antares is much more expensive so that limits the market. I'd like to object to this comment. Before you decide on an aircraft (or make comments about their pricing), please get up to date offers for all brands you would concider, make sure that the offers include ALL the itimes you will need to operate the aircraft, then look at the BOTTOM line. The bottom line Antares pricing is competitive with similar infernal combustion based products. It must also be said that ALL sailplane manufacturers offer an amazing amount of product for the money they charge. There is a lot of idealism in the business. Anyway, if you are seriously interrested in an antares, then you are also more than welcome to make an appointment for a visit to Lange Flugzeugbau, including a test flight. Then you will know where the money goes. Contact information can be found at www.Lange-Flugzeugbau.com Cheers, Andor (yep, I work there) |
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