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#21
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Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
He doesn't fly a white Gyro out of KSEE (Gillespie Field) does he??? SEEK AND YOU SHALL FIND.... Or something like that. Just had a peek at an older browser I once used and there it was. http://www.geocities.com/kenj_sandye...nsWebPage.html Yupper's.... It's white. Unfortunately it's been a few years since he's updated his page and it's been a couple of years since he was a regular here. |
#22
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Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award
Shiver wrote:
He is a big big champion of the vertical (centerline) stabilizer on gyros and I do believe has had his share of arguements with the developers of the RAF gyros on this subject. He has talked about the dangers of buntover with resulting death in this group at various times. Buntover??? In my reading I haven't run across that term. I know how to keep from causing the normal spike knock, tail boom strikes, 0 G pitch down and mast bumping problems. From the word, is it a forward pitchover caused by the horizontal stabilizer being too low? -- boB, SAG 70 U.S. Army Aviation (retired) Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK) |
#23
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Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award
boB wrote:
Buntover??? In my reading I haven't run across that term. I know how to keep from causing the normal spike knock, tail boom strikes, 0 G pitch down and mast bumping problems. From the word, is it a forward pitchover caused by the horizontal stabilizer being too low? From the Groen Brothers website http://www.americanautogyro.com/Cent...line%20Thrust% 20P1.htm Watch for the URL wraparound It's described in the first couple of paragraphs. That link by the way is about four pages long and is interesting reading. If my feeble memory serves me correctly.... Oh Mr. Sandy Eggo where are you...... Ken bought an RAF gyro that did not have a vertival stabilzer. Correct me if I am wrong. He became aware of various accidents involving buntover due to no stabilizer and many of those pilots were killed or seriously injured. As a result he became a convert to the idea of having a centerline stabilzer added ( with dihedral I do believe ). He got into arguements with the RAF people who I presume did not feel it was necessary. When Groen brothers offered a factory kit for his RAF gyro he sent it off to them for upgrading and as far as I know he is a very satisfied customer. |
#24
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Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award
Shiver wrote:
boB wrote: Buntover??? In my reading I haven't run across that term. I know how to keep from causing the normal spike knock, tail boom strikes, 0 G pitch down and mast bumping problems. From the word, is it a forward pitchover caused by the horizontal stabilizer being too low? From the Groen Brothers website http://www.americanautogyro.com/Cent...line%20Thrust% 20P1.htm Watch for the URL wraparound It's described in the first couple of paragraphs. That link by the way is about four pages long and is interesting reading. If my feeble memory serves me correctly.... Oh Mr. Sandy Eggo where are you...... Ken bought an RAF gyro that did not have a vertival stabilzer. Correct me if I am wrong. He became aware of various accidents involving buntover due to no stabilizer and many of those pilots were killed or seriously injured. As a result he became a convert to the idea of having a centerline stabilzer added ( with dihedral I do believe ). He got into arguements with the RAF people who I presume did not feel it was necessary. When Groen brothers offered a factory kit for his RAF gyro he sent it off to them for upgrading and as far as I know he is a very satisfied customer. Thanks. I'll do some reading -- boB, SAG 70 U.S. Army Aviation (retired) Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK) |
#25
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Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
so chances are I've seen Ken terrorizing the airspace down there within the past year. Well if you ever run into him tell him to stick his head into the group now and again and say howdy hi. He was a well know and respected regular a few years ago. Here's hoping he's spending lots of his free time flying up and down the coast in his gyro. |
#26
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Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego wrote:
but I don't stay local much at all these days when I fly.. I was a little surprised when I was surfing Groen's site yesterday and looked at the pricing info on the sparrowhawk kits. 35 thousand buckies seems kinda reasonable for a kit built gyro. Have you ever considered a beast like that. Seems like the main difference between that and a helicopter is you can't take off vertical, and you can't hover. |
#27
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Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award
On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 12:12:43 -0800, in rec.aviation.rotorcraft, The OTHER
Kevin in San Diego skiddz "AT" adelphia "DOT" net said: Well if you ever run into him tell him to stick his head into the group now and again and say howdy hi. Within the past year Ken J. sold his Sparrowhawk converted RAF-2000 gyroplane and bought a very nice FAA certified McCullough J2 gyroplane. Last I heard he was considering getting a commercial gyroplane rating. Regards, John L. |
#28
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Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award
John A. Landry wrote:
Within the past year Ken J. sold his Sparrowhawk converted RAF-2000 gyroplane and bought a very nice FAA certified McCullough J2 gyroplane. Last I heard he was considering getting a commercial gyroplane rating. Well it's nice to hear he's still flying. Next time you see him tell him we miss him. Sheeeeeesh... I just Googles McCullough J2 gyroplane and the info on the little beast is sure skimpy. Found one mediocre picture buried in a page. Anyone got a URL for their website. Please and thank you. |
#29
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Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award
"boB" wrote in message
... Shiver wrote: He is a big big champion of the vertical (centerline) stabilizer on gyros and I do believe has had his share of arguements with the developers of the RAF gyros on this subject. He has talked about the dangers of buntover with resulting death in this group at various times. Buntover??? In my reading I haven't run across that term. I know how to keep from causing the normal spike knock, tail boom strikes, 0 G pitch down and mast bumping problems. From the word, is it a forward pitchover caused by the horizontal stabilizer being too low? -- boB, SAG 70 Buntover is just another term for a power push over (PPO). From what I've gathered in my reading through the years, it's not as much an issue with the horizontal stabilizer as it is with the placement of the engines thrust line relative to the vertical CG of the aircraft. Gyros like the stock RAF2000 have the thrust line at a significant distance above the vertical CG of the aircraft. That imparts a nose down moment when under power. The main rotor, because it's tilted aft in flight, offers a counter force to the forward pitching moment. If you unload the main rotor enough, there's not counter force to that forward pitching moment caused by the engine thrust line being above the CG and over she goes. A properly placed and sized horizontal stab can go a long way toward reducing the possibility of this problem but it doesn't address the root cause. That being a thrust line that's not properly in line with the vertical CG of the aircraft. At least that's my understanding. If I'm too far off on this, I'm sure someone will correct me! :-) Fly Safe, Steve R. |
#30
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Gyro's was Groen Bros. DARPA Award
Steve R wrote:
"boB" wrote in message ... Shiver wrote: He is a big big champion of the vertical (centerline) stabilizer on gyros and I do believe has had his share of arguements with the developers of the RAF gyros on this subject. He has talked about the dangers of buntover with resulting death in this group at various times. Buntover??? In my reading I haven't run across that term. I know how to keep from causing the normal spike knock, tail boom strikes, 0 G pitch down and mast bumping problems. From the word, is it a forward pitchover caused by the horizontal stabilizer being too low? -- boB, SAG 70 Buntover is just another term for a power push over (PPO). From what I've gathered in my reading through the years, it's not as much an issue with the horizontal stabilizer as it is with the placement of the engines thrust line relative to the vertical CG of the aircraft. Gyros like the stock RAF2000 have the thrust line at a significant distance above the vertical CG of the aircraft. That imparts a nose down moment when under power. The main rotor, because it's tilted aft in flight, offers a counter force to the forward pitching moment. If you unload the main rotor enough, there's not counter force to that forward pitching moment caused by the engine thrust line being above the CG and over she goes. A properly placed and sized horizontal stab can go a long way toward reducing the possibility of this problem but it doesn't address the root cause. That being a thrust line that's not properly in line with the vertical CG of the aircraft. At least that's my understanding. If I'm too far off on this, I'm sure someone will correct me! :-) Fly Safe, Steve R. Thanks Steve. That sounds like two forces working against each other. That doesn't seem to be efficient as far as strain on the systems. Something similar on my Sprint II with the engine and prop above the vertical CG. If the engine quits or even when throttling down the nose pops up which screwed up my landings early on. I had been fixed on the RAF2000 but hadn't really looked at the competition before. I appreciate all the advice. -- boB, SAG 70 U.S. Army Aviation (retired) Central Texas - 5NM West of Gray Army Airfield (KGRK) |
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