First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

http://www.trig-avionics.com/new-tn7...at-flyer-live/

This should be available Q1 2017 - it's already popping up on aircraftSpruce & the like, at a sub- $400 price. Quite interesting for those of us with Trig transponders.

In the US, all airspace is "outside of designated ADS-B out airspace" for gliders. Or motorgliders I presume.

I should clarify after some study of 91.225 for gliders.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx..._1225&rgn=div8

TABS is always voluntary.

After 2020 a TSO-C166b 1090es ADS-B out (not just TABS or UAT) will be required

- In class A, above FL180. Presumably IFR without a wave-window.

Either 1090es or UAT (but not TABS) is acceptable

- Inside class B or class C airspace, or within that lateral boundary above 10,000' MSL (or the airspace ceiling, whichever is lower.)

Otherwise as with a transponder today, ADSB-out of any kind will not be required within the class B "veil" or generally in controlled airspace between 10,000' and 18,000' MSL.

Whew!

Sarah,

Thanks for the explanation... but... I'm still confused. Try explaining it one more time.

It sounds like having TABS with your Trig in a glider will make you more visible to other aircraft who can track ADS-B out messages. The Mode S transponder already gives an equipped glider visibility to TCAS.

Now, in a Mode S equipped glider, I can request a clearance to enter Class A,B, C, or restricted airspace ... but in the future after 2020... will that clearance be denied UNLESS I have a TSO-C166B ADS-B out device? I would hope that FAA or ATC would allow clearances to enter/transit Class A,B,C and restricted airspace WITH a TABS device.

So, to me... this sounds like a very minimally beneficial upgrade to my Trig setup. I wonder... will TABS devices be visible to the satellite based ADS-B tracking service? If so, it might replace other satellite tracking devices like Spot and Delorme/Garmin InReach.

My two cents...

Walt Rogers WX

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 2:29:07 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
I should clarify after some study of 91.225 for gliders.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx..._1225&rgn=div8

TABS is always voluntary.

After 2020 a TSO-C166b 1090es ADS-B out (not just TABS or UAT) will be required

- In class A, above FL180. Presumably IFR without a wave-window.

Either 1090es or UAT (but not TABS) is acceptable

- Inside class B or class C airspace, or within that lateral boundary above 10,000' MSL (or the airspace ceiling, whichever is lower.)

Otherwise as with a transponder today, ADSB-out of any kind will not be required within the class B "veil" or generally in controlled airspace between 10,000' and 18,000' MSL.

Whew!

Hi Walt,

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:31:05 PM UTC-6, WaltWX wrote:

It sounds like having TABS with your Trig in a glider will make you more visible to other aircraft who can track ADS-B out messages. The Mode S transponder already gives an equipped glider visibility to TCAS.

Right. It would make you visible on all those GA ADSB-in devices & ipads. That's something. It should also make your position visible to powerflarm users, but I have not verified that.

Now, in a Mode S equipped glider, I can request a clearance to enter Class A,B, C, or restricted airspace ... but in the future after 2020... will that clearance be denied UNLESS I have a TSO-C166B ADS-B out device?

That's how I read 91.225. I'd love to be corrected. If you really need to enter class A IFR, you'll need something much more expensive and harder to fit in a glider, a 1090es/TSO-C166 device. A TSO'd UAT is enough for class B or C. If you have an experimental glider non-TSO'd equipment is OK but you have to be careful.
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/faq/#q4
I'm not an expert in these areas - see other posts on RAS or page Darryl Ramm.

I would hope that FAA or ATC would allow clearances to enter/transit Class A,B,C and restricted airspace WITH a TABS device.

One can always hope.


So, to me... this sounds like a very minimally beneficial upgrade to my Trig setup. I wonder... will TABS devices be visible to the satellite based ADS-B tracking service? If so, it might replace other satellite tracking devices like Spot and Delorme/Garmin InReach.

I don't know. I suspect they would be as visible as any other ADSB-out device, but I'm not certain.

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 12:56:16 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
http://www.trig-avionics.com/new-tn7...at-flyer-live/

This should be available Q1 2017 - it's already popping up on aircraftSpruce & the like, at a sub- $400 price. Quite interesting for those of us with Trig transponders.

In the US, all airspace is "outside of designated ADS-B out airspace" for gliders. Or motorgliders I presume.

What are the consequences of having a Trig 21 vs 22, in both the TABS regulations and pure functionality? I understand that a Trig 21 may not meet TABS regulations, if there ever comes to be some. But will it actually function, if wired to the Trig TN72 source?

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:56:54 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 12:56:16 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
http://www.trig-avionics.com/new-tn7...at-flyer-live/

This should be available Q1 2017 - it's already popping up on aircraftSpruce & the like, at a sub- $400 price. Quite interesting for those of us with Trig transponders.

In the US, all airspace is "outside of designated ADS-B out airspace" for gliders. Or motorgliders I presume.

What are the consequences of having a Trig 21 vs 22, in both the TABS regulations and pure functionality? I understand that a Trig 21 may not meet TABS regulations, if there ever comes to be some. But will it actually function, if wired to the Trig TN72 source?

Probably none. Except visits from the FCC & airport police.

I will have the TN72 in the first quarter of 2017 per the distributor.


Richard
www.craggyaero.com

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 7:11:53 PM UTC-5, Sarah wrote:
Hi Walt,

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:31:05 PM UTC-6, WaltWX wrote:

It sounds like having TABS with your Trig in a glider will make you more visible to other aircraft who can track ADS-B out messages. The Mode S transponder already gives an equipped glider visibility to TCAS.

Right. It would make you visible on all those GA ADSB-in devices & ipads. That's something. It should also make your position visible to powerflarm users, but I have not verified that.

Now, in a Mode S equipped glider, I can request a clearance to enter Class A,B, C, or restricted airspace ... but in the future after 2020... will that clearance be denied UNLESS I have a TSO-C166B ADS-B out device?

That's how I read 91.225. I'd love to be corrected. If you really need to enter class A IFR, you'll need something much more expensive and harder to fit in a glider, a 1090es/TSO-C166 device. A TSO'd UAT is enough for class B or C. If you have an experimental glider non-TSO'd equipment is OK but you have to be careful.
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/faq/#q4
I'm not an expert in these areas - see other posts on RAS or page Darryl Ramm.

I would hope that FAA or ATC would allow clearances to enter/transit Class A,B,C and restricted airspace WITH a TABS device.

One can always hope.


So, to me... this sounds like a very minimally beneficial upgrade to my Trig setup. I wonder... will TABS devices be visible to the satellite based ADS-B tracking service? If so, it might replace other satellite tracking devices like Spot and Delorme/Garmin InReach.

I don't know. I suspect they would be as visible as any other ADSB-out device, but I'm not certain.

The big advantage of having a TN72 coupled with a Trig transponder is that it will trigger the ADS-B ground stations to generate TIS-B and ADS-R broadcasts so that you can reliably see other aircraft if you are ADS-B IN equipped. Without an ADS-B OUT signal, you will not see any transponder equipped aircraft unless they are ADS-B OUT equipped, nor will you see ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft that are using a different frequency than your ADS-B receiver (not an issue if you have a dual frequency ADS-B receiver).

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 6:56:54 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 12:56:16 PM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
http://www.trig-avionics.com/new-tn7...at-flyer-live/

This should be available Q1 2017 - it's already popping up on aircraftSpruce & the like, at a sub- $400 price. Quite interesting for those of us with Trig transponders.

In the US, all airspace is "outside of designated ADS-B out airspace" for gliders. Or motorgliders I presume.

What are the consequences of having a Trig 21 vs 22, in both the TABS regulations and pure functionality? I understand that a Trig 21 may not meet TABS regulations, if there ever comes to be some. But will it actually function, if wired to the Trig TN72 source?

I had inquired directly with Trig on the potential use of the TT21 and the TN72 and this was their response in a message back to me on Dec 7th...

"Thank you for your interest in our TN72 GPS receiver.

The TN72 is compatible with your TT21 transponder and is an ideal choice for your glider.
TABS exists to allow exempt aircraft like yours to participate in ADS-B.
Your TT21 transponder exceeds the technical requirements of TABS and so does not require upgrading.

The TN72 will be shipping in early 2017 and will be available through all Trig dealers."

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 7:56:54 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:

What are the consequences of having a Trig 21 vs 22, in both the TABS regulations and pure functionality? I understand that a Trig 21 may not meet TABS regulations, if there ever comes to be some. But will it actually function, if wired to the Trig TN72 source?

I would think either would be fine. They are almost identical except in power output. There are actually no TABS regulations other than the TSO.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.227

goes on and on about UAT and TSO-166 specifications but doesn't mention TABS.

We will see when more information comes out of Trig. For instance - It would be really nice if the required antenna wasn't larger than the TN72 and more expensive.

On Wednesday, January 4, 2017 at 6:46:25 AM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 7:56:54 PM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:

What are the consequences of having a Trig 21 vs 22, in both the TABS regulations and pure functionality? I understand that a Trig 21 may not meet TABS regulations, if there ever comes to be some. But will it actually function, if wired to the Trig TN72 source?

I would think either would be fine. They are almost identical except in power output. There are actually no TABS regulations other than the TSO.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.227

goes on and on about UAT and TSO-166 specifications but doesn't mention TABS.

We will see when more information comes out of Trig. For instance - It would be really nice if the required antenna wasn't larger than the TN72 and more expensive.

Available for preorder

http://www.craggyaero.com/nav_com.htm

First quarter of 2017

More information to follow on website

Richard
www.craggyaero.com