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First TSO-C199 "TABS" device



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 5th 17, 07:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
SF
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Default First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

Is there any way to get one GPS antenna for everything?
Pretty easy to amass quite a collection of them
CNFD, CNV, CA302, Flarm, TABS

SF


  #22  
Old January 5th 17, 07:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Richard[_9_]
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Default First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 9:06:12 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On 1/3/17 7:56 PM, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 7:11:53 PM UTC-5, Sarah wrote:
Hi Walt,

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 5:31:05 PM UTC-6, WaltWX wrote:

It sounds like having TABS with your Trig in a glider will make you more visible to other aircraft who can track ADS-B out messages. The Mode S transponder already gives an equipped glider visibility to TCAS.

Right. It would make you visible on all those GA ADSB-in devices & ipads. That's something. It should also make your position visible to powerflarm users, but I have not verified that.

Now, in a Mode S equipped glider, I can request a clearance to enter Class A,B, C, or restricted airspace ... but in the future after 2020... will that clearance be denied UNLESS I have a TSO-C166B ADS-B out device?

That's how I read 91.225. I'd love to be corrected. If you really need to enter class A IFR, you'll need something much more expensive and harder to fit in a glider, a 1090es/TSO-C166 device. A TSO'd UAT is enough for class B or C. If you have an experimental glider non-TSO'd equipment is OK but you have to be careful.
https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/faq/#q4
I'm not an expert in these areas - see other posts on RAS or page Darryl Ramm.


(To be careful here, you strictly don't need a "TSO'd UAT" (or 1090ES
Out) for class B or C. An *experimental* aircraft just needs a "Meets
performance requirement of TSO..." device.).

I agree that is what the regulations say, and the intent around
TABS/TSO-C199 was aiming at collision avoidance and deliberately not at
ATC applications. If planning on obtaining IFR clearances into Class A
airspace I'd be planning on equipping a glider with a 2020 Complaint
1090ES Out system... but I'd also talk with your local FSDO.

I have some questions around this myself and am trying to find answers
and will post updates if I can.



I would hope that FAA or ATC would allow clearances to enter/transit Class A,B,C and restricted airspace WITH a TABS device.

One can always hope.


So, to me... this sounds like a very minimally beneficial upgrade to my Trig setup. I wonder... will TABS devices be visible to the satellite based ADS-B tracking service? If so, it might replace other satellite tracking devices like Spot and Delorme/Garmin InReach.

I don't know. I suspect they would be as visible as any other ADSB-out device, but I'm not certain.


The big advantage of having a TN72 coupled with a Trig transponder is that it will trigger the ADS-B ground stations to generate TIS-B and ADS-R broadcasts so that you can reliably see other aircraft if you are ADS-B IN equipped. Without an ADS-B OUT signal, you will not see any transponder equipped aircraft unless they are ADS-B OUT equipped, nor will you see ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft that are using a different frequency than your ADS-B receiver (not an issue if you have a dual frequency ADS-B receiver).


Since TABS/TSO-C199 and is all based on 1090ES Out I expect this will
just work. But you would want to ask (future) providers like Aireon, but
lots of things about their future service offerings including pricing,
data availability, etc are unclear to me. Their initial focus seems much
more airlines and trans-oceanic ATC applications.

It will be interesting to watch what is happening here over the next
decade or so but I do not expect Spot and Inreach devices to be replaced
any time soon by any ADS-B technology. The messaging capability with
InReach especially won't be replaced by ADS-B tracking.

Terrestrial crowd sourced tracking systems like Flightradar24 should
have no problems technically receiving TABS/TSO-C199 based devices as
long as they have local receiver coverage. Now whether those services
decide to publish tracks for all GA aircraft or gliders in the future
who knows.


Sorry to rain on the parade but!

An amplified GPS antenna is needed that meets ETSO C190
Trig TA70 Antenna $318 + Trig TN72 TABS GPS $359 = $677

Richard
www.craggyaero.com
  #23  
Old January 5th 17, 08:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Richard[_9_]
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Default First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 10:34:52 AM UTC-8, SF wrote:
Is there any way to get one GPS antenna for everything?
Pretty easy to amass quite a collection of them
CNFD, CNV, CA302, Flarm, TABS

SF


One GPS antenna for 3 or 4 or 5 devices.

The problem is that each GPS provides power to the antenna, so just splitting the wire does not work and will damage something. Some have tried to use DC blockers on all devices but one.

I troubleshot one system that had a DC blocker on two inputs and an Air Avionics Vario, ClearNav, PowerFlarm.
Problem not all the instruments worked correctly. Tried switching the connections but nothing worked. When I went to 3 seperate GPS antennas all worked.

So in theory yes but practice maybe not.

Richard
www.craggyaero.
  #24  
Old January 5th 17, 08:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS
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Default First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 11:09:47 AM UTC-8, Richard wrote:
On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 10:34:52 AM UTC-8, SF wrote:
Is there any way to get one GPS antenna for everything?
Pretty easy to amass quite a collection of them
CNFD, CNV, CA302, Flarm, TABS

SF


One GPS antenna for 3 or 4 or 5 devices.

The problem is that each GPS provides power to the antenna, so just splitting the wire does not work and will damage something. Some have tried to use DC blockers on all devices but one.

I troubleshot one system that had a DC blocker on two inputs and an Air Avionics Vario, ClearNav, PowerFlarm.
Problem not all the instruments worked correctly. Tried switching the connections but nothing worked. When I went to 3 seperate GPS antennas all worked.

So in theory yes but practice maybe not.

Richard
www.craggyaero.


I know this is slightly derailing the thread so I'll make another one.
Jim
  #25  
Old January 5th 17, 11:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

It seems to me the real benefit of adsb will come when gliders can have a sunlight-readable adsb-traffic display in the panel (I find ipad and iphone displays too hard to read in sunlight). I did find a European instrument that seems promising: its the Funke TM250. It seems to be a combined GPS, adsb-in receiver and panel-mounted traffic display for transponder, flarm and adsb targets. Price is about $1200. I'm not sure if its suitable for the USA, but it shows the sort of combined flarm/adsb plus display instruments that will be coming for gliding. This uncertain future path makes me hesitant to buy a TN72.

  #26  
Old January 6th 17, 01:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

Depends on the computer. My 7" screen on the LX9070 displays traffic beautifully, really helps with situational awareness. Traffic is well displayed on many varios too i.e., Butterfly LXnav 80,8, 10,etc.

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 2:03:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
It seems to me the real benefit of adsb will come when gliders can have a sunlight-readable adsb-traffic display in the panel (I find ipad and iphone displays too hard to read in sunlight). I did find a European instrument that seems promising: its the Funke TM250. It seems to be a combined GPS, adsb-in receiver and panel-mounted traffic display for transponder, flarm and adsb targets. Price is about $1200. I'm not sure if its suitable for the USA, but it shows the sort of combined flarm/adsb plus display instruments that will be coming for gliding. This uncertain future path makes me hesitant to buy a TN72.

  #27  
Old January 6th 17, 03:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

Same with the ClearNav II. ...But all ADS-B targets are displayed with
a B-52 silhouette!

On 1/5/2017 5:52 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Depends on the computer. My 7" screen on the LX9070 displays traffic beautifully, really helps with situational awareness. Traffic is well displayed on many varios too i.e., Butterfly LXnav 80,8, 10,etc.

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 2:03:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
It seems to me the real benefit of adsb will come when gliders can have a sunlight-readable adsb-traffic display in the panel (I find ipad and iphone displays too hard to read in sunlight). I did find a European instrument that seems promising: its the Funke TM250. It seems to be a combined GPS, adsb-in receiver and panel-mounted traffic display for transponder, flarm and adsb targets. Price is about $1200. I'm not sure if its suitable for the USA, but it shows the sort of combined flarm/adsb plus display instruments that will be coming for gliding. This uncertain future path makes me hesitant to buy a TN72.


--
Dan, 5J
  #28  
Old January 6th 17, 03:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Richard[_9_]
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Posts: 551
Default First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 2:03:02 PM UTC-8, wrote:
It seems to me the real benefit of adsb will come when gliders can have a sunlight-readable adsb-traffic display in the panel (I find ipad and iphone displays too hard to read in sunlight). I did find a European instrument that seems promising: its the Funke TM250. It seems to be a combined GPS, adsb-in receiver and panel-mounted traffic display for transponder, flarm and adsb targets. Price is about $1200. I'm not sure if its suitable for the USA, but it shows the sort of combined flarm/adsb plus display instruments that will be coming for gliding. This uncertain future path makes me hesitant to buy a TN72.


The Craggy Aero Ultimate Le /le57 a very sunlight readable display running SeeYou PNA also displays flarm and ADS-B targets.

http://www.craggyaero.com/ultimates.htm

Richard
www.craggyaero.com

  #29  
Old January 6th 17, 05:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Sarah[_2_]
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Posts: 63
Default First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

Just to clarify ... all the people chiming in about traffic display options (LX, CNV, Oudie...) have a powerflarm ADSB/Flarm receiver, right?

I have very limited room. Adding TN72 is possible, but adding a powerflarm also would be very difficult. Maybe I could if I take out my varios.


On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 6:52:27 PM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Depends on the computer. My 7" screen on the LX9070 displays traffic beautifully, really helps with situational awareness. Traffic is well displayed on many varios too i.e., Butterfly LXnav 80,8, 10,etc.

  #30  
Old January 6th 17, 05:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default First TSO-C199 "TABS" device

Hi Sarah,

Think about stalk mounting off panel. A cheap universal automotive cell
phone cradle works great! Cut off the base and attach it to the top or
side of your panel with two Adel clamps. Here's a picture of how I
mounted a Dell Streak in my crowded LAK-17a:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/d61t34oz6x...panel.jpg?dl=0

BTW, the ClearNav does not have a built-in FLARM receiver. I mounted a
PowerFLARM portable to the top of the glare shield of my Stemme and feed
the ClearNav via serial cable. I have a friend who mounts his PF
portable AND an LX9000 (I think) on stalks in his LAK-17bfes. Maybe
he'll share a picture.

Good luck!
Dan


On 1/6/2017 9:01 AM, Sarah wrote:
Just to clarify ... all the people chiming in about traffic display options (LX, CNV, Oudie...) have a powerflarm ADSB/Flarm receiver, right?

I have very limited room. Adding TN72 is possible, but adding a powerflarm also would be very difficult. Maybe I could if I take out my varios.


On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 6:52:27 PM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Depends on the computer. My 7" screen on the LX9070 displays traffic beautifully, really helps with situational awareness. Traffic is well displayed on many varios too i.e., Butterfly LXnav 80,8, 10,etc.


--
Dan, 5J
 




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