looking for advice on lead n follow flights

At 12:52 01 November 2018, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 8:15:05 AM UTC-4, Roy
Garden wrote:
At 10:49 01 November 2018, Per Carlin wrote:
I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close
as possible
bet=3D
ween the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than
within
eyesight=3D
and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more
than a
radio.=3D
=20
Thanks Per,=20
The issue I have is that I'm doing this in wave not thermal.
I want to leave the guys in lift and go off to check the next bit
that
looks=20
good, actually is, before I call the guys to jump into it.
=20
On recent flights around here (Scotland) I've come back to the
same
place=
=20
4 hours later and the wave is still running. So there are less
issues
wit=
h
lift=20
changing between me marking it and the guys using it. (not
zero, but
less=
)
=20
The issue here is that the terrain is generally unlandable.
The Sink can be horrific.
And we are usually operating in winds stronger than 50kts at
cruising
alt=
..
None of these things are familiar to the guys asking for the lead
n
follow.
=20
So I want to be able to leave the guys in lift and get 10-15k
away from=
=20
them to check the next bit.

We fly in conditions such as you describe in Northern NH & Maine
US.
Every=
one is responsible for doing their own homework. Terrain is
extremely
tech=
nical, landables fairly sparse. =20

Pair / team flying tactics are very useful for figuring out the wave,
but
e=
ven sharp, well experienced pilots get a scare from time to time.
A mile
o=
f altitude can go away with astonishing speed.

You do not need to be in visual contact to pass useful information
to each
=
other.=20

Use of any sort of GPS device including tracking is made difficult
by high
=
wind and often huge variation between heading and ground track.
"North
Up"=
probably a better option. Flarm does (or at least did, I have not
flown
t=
he most recent releases in the wave) odd things when your
ground speed is
v=
ery low. It may consider you or your flying buddy a non-flying
aircraft.

Happy to pair fly in such conditions. The other guy has to be
100%
respons=
ible for his own navigation, decision making, eventual landing.
Not
taking=
the job of shepherding around an ill prepared newbie. =20

best,
Evan / T8


I think Roy's newbies are 1000hr pilots looking for a diamond height
As I have been doing the same thing at Denbigh I know how they
feel.
You are 12000ft ,on O2 above 7/8 cloud looking for the next good
lift, the LX is giving all sorts of winds because its not good if you are
not circling, all you can do is keep your eyes on the remaining gap
in the cloud and your moving map.And voices on the radio say
"I've got 6Kn 8K out at 160 degrees from base"
and you think " I am not going there I won't be able to see my hole
in the cloud"
So next time you ask a local like Roy if you can follow, which puts
pressure on him that he doesn't need.
There are some good answers on u.r.a.s.b about flarm team
settings
that I am going to try on my next expedition to the Welsh diamond
mine.

Maybe borrow a chapter from tactics on team flying.....

......or heck, just have the leader paint "KAWA" on his/her glider. They'll have no trouble finding it.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 9:45:04 AM UTC-4, Jonathon May wrote:
At 12:52 01 November 2018, Tango Eight wrote:
On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 8:15:05 AM UTC-4, Roy
Garden wrote:
At 10:49 01 November 2018, Per Carlin wrote:
I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close
as possible
bet=3D
ween the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than
within
eyesight=3D
and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more
than a
radio.=3D
=20
Thanks Per,=20
The issue I have is that I'm doing this in wave not thermal.
I want to leave the guys in lift and go off to check the next bit
that
looks=20
good, actually is, before I call the guys to jump into it.
=20
On recent flights around here (Scotland) I've come back to the
same
place=
=20
4 hours later and the wave is still running. So there are less
issues
wit=
h
lift=20
changing between me marking it and the guys using it. (not
zero, but
less=
)
=20
The issue here is that the terrain is generally unlandable.
The Sink can be horrific.
And we are usually operating in winds stronger than 50kts at
cruising
alt=
..
None of these things are familiar to the guys asking for the lead
n
follow.
=20
So I want to be able to leave the guys in lift and get 10-15k
away from=
=20
them to check the next bit.

We fly in conditions such as you describe in Northern NH & Maine
US.
Every=
one is responsible for doing their own homework. Terrain is
extremely
tech=
nical, landables fairly sparse. =20

Pair / team flying tactics are very useful for figuring out the wave,
but
e=
ven sharp, well experienced pilots get a scare from time to time.
A mile
o=
f altitude can go away with astonishing speed.

You do not need to be in visual contact to pass useful information
to each
=
other.=20

Use of any sort of GPS device including tracking is made difficult
by high
=
wind and often huge variation between heading and ground track.
"North
Up"=
probably a better option. Flarm does (or at least did, I have not
flown
t=
he most recent releases in the wave) odd things when your
ground speed is
v=
ery low. It may consider you or your flying buddy a non-flying
aircraft.

Happy to pair fly in such conditions. The other guy has to be
100%
respons=
ible for his own navigation, decision making, eventual landing.
Not
taking=
the job of shepherding around an ill prepared newbie. =20

best,
Evan / T8


I think Roy's newbies are 1000hr pilots looking for a diamond height
As I have been doing the same thing at Denbigh I know how they
feel.
You are 12000ft ,on O2 above 7/8 cloud looking for the next good
lift, the LX is giving all sorts of winds because its not good if you are
not circling, all you can do is keep your eyes on the remaining gap
in the cloud and your moving map.And voices on the radio say
"I've got 6Kn 8K out at 160 degrees from base"
and you think " I am not going there I won't be able to see my hole
in the cloud"
So next time you ask a local like Roy if you can follow, which puts
pressure on him that he doesn't need.
There are some good answers on u.r.a.s.b about flarm team
settings
that I am going to try on my next expedition to the Welsh diamond
mine.

That's the thing. 1000hrs of XC in thermals isn't all that useful for safety and confidence in the wave. Doubly so for wet wave. Preparation, study, good procedures are essential... and cannot be transmitted via radio.

best,
Evan

T8

Although they were in thermal conditions and so not directly comparable to wave, when I was a pupil on lead and follow courses, at different stages in my flying, with 2 top pilots the main aim was that the pupil should experience the same air as the teacher at as close to the same time as possible so that we could understand why the leader responded the way that he did - for better and for worse. To that end we flew in close (really close) line astern formation. In one course we also took turns at leading and justifying our decisions at debriefing. I think it is essential to experience and analyse the consequences of wrong decisions (hopefully a minority) as well as right ones.

On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 3:57:36 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Although they were in thermal conditions and so not directly comparable to wave, when I was a pupil on lead and follow courses, at different stages in my flying, with 2 top pilots the main aim was that the pupil should experience the same air as the teacher at as close to the same time as possible so that we could understand why the leader responded the way that he did - for better and for worse. To that end we flew in close (really close) line astern formation. In one course we also took turns at leading and justifying our decisions at debriefing. I think it is essential to experience and analyse the consequences of wrong decisions (hopefully a minority) as well as right ones.

- With "really close formation" how did you (1) prevent running into each other and (2) accommodate differences in glider performance? Note that if you slow down to handle (1) you end up higher (2).

My "really close" isn't so close that running into each other would be a danger - but as close as we could. If someone dropped lower they would generally catch up in the next climb. If necessary the teacher dropped down to guide them up. The teacher in one case had the lowest performance glider - in the other marginally the highest and used the air brakes to keep down to our level.

One of the aspects that has only been briefly discussed:

The follower must follow! If they feel that they need "just a couple more turns" in the thermal and the leader has headed ou, They will be left behind in a hurry.

I have usually asked the "follower" to lead out and then I can trail or move abeam to discuss the next option(s).

I also have a plan discussed with the follower about the general direction of the task legs and what the bail-out procedure is. If the day is long enough you can do a short course and bring them back to the field for them to try is on their own.

MB

Roy Garden, in his original post says Flarm is useless.

I don't know how his and his friends systems are set up, but mine works GREAT.
I usually get a 7-10+ mile range on mine and that is a long way. Some of my friends are reporting longer ranges with higher performing antenna's

The Lead and follow flight is very difficult to do, as it is so easy to get separated. Then the endless Where are You radio calls start, not much fun.

At the Logan Ut. XC camp back in I think 2016, I hooked up with Tim Taylor; him in his Ventus 2 and me in my LS3a. Tim flies fast and I soon lost sight of him. Through Flarm I was able to "see" him and fly his track and meet up with him at the turn around point up by Alpine Wyoming. he waited for me there and then we ran back home, but once again I lost sight of him but could see him the whole way on the Flarm. That was a great day for me. And I would not have made that flight on that day without Tim in front of me.
These novice level lead and follow flights are tough to do, I think the lead pilot needs to be in a lower performance glider, and the following pilot HAS to stick with the leader, or It quickly falls apart.

Several good posts, but I think Per covers most of them in one. FWIW, I ran a racing camp for a couple of years where we had anywhere from 10-15 pairs trying at the same time. Out of that, maybe 20% of the pairs were able to pull off anything like a successful lead/follow. Out of all the different failure modes, the two biggest ones we

- Leader saying "I'll head out for that next cloud 7 miles out and let you know". Once you're more than a 1/2 mile apart, you're no longer flying the same flight.

- Followers who refuse to follow. I distinctly remember being at 7,000 feet on a beautiful day 10 miles from the home airport and my follower refused to pass up even a half knot as we went back to take a start. He simply wasn't ready to commit to XC at any level.

I would say that briefing the mission and especially the key parameters (hard deck, maximum separation, leader willing to pull the boards, appetite for landing out) needs to be done on the ground for a solid 20-30 minutes before you start flying.

P3



On Thursday, November 1, 2018 at 6:49:58 AM UTC-4, Per Carlin wrote:
I would say that Lead & Follow has to be performed as close as possible between the leader and the followers. Absolutely not more than within eyesight and therefore is there no need of any technical devices more than a radio. In worst case is a GPS with some fixed turning points enough to communicate distance and bearing to close the separation.

What happens if the distance becomes to big (10-15km) and I as leader finds out a good climb? I will take it and most likely leave it until the followers are there, they will only get the information of where it was as good climb, not if it still there and how to center it. They will stay for a while and struggle, perhaps find it a go to could base and in worst case abandon it and follow me on the lows. At the next thermal I find will the separation be even bigger and the follow & lead will fail unless I pull the brake and take away 500m+ in height.

Lead & follow has to be performed in a closer configuration, max 2-3km in distance and ~100m in height. If the separation becomes bigger do the leader have a few options:
- To try a weak thermal which I might not have taken when alone, to give the followers the time to catch up
- Stay at could base to wait until the followers has the same height until leaving
- Pull the brake to get to the same height and together make a save from the lows
- The follow have to follow all the time. Any kind of sidetrack will make the sepperation bigger.

To a surprise for many can this be performed with quite big differences in glider performance as long as the wing load are in the same range.

This art of soaring is not easy, it has to be performed with discipline and with respect to all in the team. The leader has the respect that the followers are not equally skilled in finding and centering thermals and the followers has to dare to follow the leader into unknow areas (without compromising the safety). It is also essential to prior the flight agree on how to communicate on the radio, misunderstandings are not helping when the situation becomes stressed.

One more thought on this
If someone wants to learn to fly XC I think a good way is, once they can takeoff, thermal and land safely and use a final glide/ waypoint computer is for them/ encourage them to enter a Regional contest. Lots of chances of flying with others in a somewhat controlled situation. Lots of people to follow. Weather information, Retrieve office, partys and mutipule days of flying XC with a mob is great fun and its easy to get swept up in the momentum of leaving your home airport and heading out and making some decisions. It's easy to keep going when you see a gaggle in front of you climbing. With Flarm being more prevalent, that is a great help too. Those OLC meets Bruno puts on are all of the above, and everyone is required to have Flarm
Having a computer on board which shows all your makeable airports lit up in green is a big help too. Line several up those airports up in a row and its easier to keep going. The new software makes it so easy, just a glance tells you how your doing on landout safety.