Cold Weather Flying

I live in Ottawa, Canada and this is my first winter as a PA-28-140 owner.
My airplane does have copper battery cables (cable ?) and an engine heater
but the previous owner warned me; in really cold weather, below (-10C/-23 F)
it won't start without a battery boost. The battery boost is in addition to
plug-in the aircraft for about an hour before departure. The aircraft
doesn't have an engine cover AND it does not have a geared starter.

Are there any other PA-28-140s with a similar problem?

I will be getting an engine cover, but I don't think this alone will
eliminate the battery boost requirements. The battery is two years old.
Normal summer start always looks like the battery is dead, i.e. one blade
goes by and the prop stops turning, ignition back to off, then crank again
and it fires up immediately.

My plan this winter is to get a trickle charger for the battery, blanket
battery warmer plus regular plug-in of the engine heater.

Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Jose Vivanco

C-GPYH.

You may want to have your charging system tested to make sure everything is
in order. If it cranks like that when it is warm then it is marginal at
best in the cold weather. The battery can also be load tested. Fix or
replace anything that is marginal and your frustration level will be much
lower over the winter.


"Jose Vivanco" wrote in message
...

I live in Ottawa, Canada and this is my first winter as a PA-28-140 owner.
My airplane does have copper battery cables (cable ?) and an engine heater
but the previous owner warned me; in really cold weather, below (-10C/-23
F)
it won't start without a battery boost. The battery boost is in addition
to
plug-in the aircraft for about an hour before departure. The aircraft
doesn't have an engine cover AND it does not have a geared starter.

Are there any other PA-28-140s with a similar problem?

I will be getting an engine cover, but I don't think this alone will
eliminate the battery boost requirements. The battery is two years old.
Normal summer start always looks like the battery is dead, i.e. one blade
goes by and the prop stops turning, ignition back to off, then crank again
and it fires up immediately.

My plan this winter is to get a trickle charger for the battery, blanket
battery warmer plus regular plug-in of the engine heater.

Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Jose Vivanco

C-GPYH.

below (-10C/-23 F)

heat the airplane? forget it! It's too cold for ME!

In article ,
Jose Vivanco wrote:

I will be getting an engine cover, but I don't think this alone will
eliminate the battery boost requirements.

Especially if the battery isn't in the engine compartment. Is the
Cherokee battery in the empennage?

Normal summer start always looks like the battery is dead, i.e. one blade
goes by and the prop stops turning, ignition back to off, then crank again
and it fires up immediately.

I flew a 182 like that and the standard procedure was to pull the prop
through about 4 blades during the preflight or else you'd have to 'rock'
it to start (like you describe). Not sure why pulling it through would
help.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

Ben Jackson wrote:

Normal summer start always looks like the battery is dead, i.e. one blade
goes by and the prop stops turning, ignition back to off, then crank again
and it fires up immediately.


I flew a 182 like that and the standard procedure was to pull the prop
through about 4 blades during the preflight or else you'd have to 'rock'
it to start (like you describe). Not sure why pulling it through would
help.

This is the classic case of a starter adapter going bad. Fix it soon as
you are introducing metal to the oil as the main shaft goes bad.

Newps wrote:


Ben Jackson wrote:

Normal summer start always looks like the battery is dead, i.e. one
blade
goes by and the prop stops turning, ignition back to off, then crank
again
and it fires up immediately.



I flew a 182 like that and the standard procedure was to pull the prop
through about 4 blades during the preflight or else you'd have to 'rock'
it to start (like you describe). Not sure why pulling it through would
help.


This is the classic case of a starter adapter going bad. Fix it soon as
you are introducing metal to the oil as the main shaft goes bad.

I had this type of problem with both my Bonanza and my Tripacer. Each
time it was one of the field wires within the starter being disconnected
from the main post and using only one side of the field.
Either it wasn't soldered on properly or the starter got hot enough to
loosen up the joint or better yet someone decided to tighten the lock
nut on the post and turned the post and broke the connection!

It certainly seemed like a battery or charging system problem.

If it isn't turning over like crazy in the summer and the battery and
wiring is good, then there IS a problem with the starter.
This is a very simple system.
I suspect that its a O-320 so the starter will not put metal in the oil
as it's only a bolt on type.

I would never suggest that you remove the four bolts that hold on the
starter and disconnect the fat wire going to the post and take it down
to your local automotive/tractor starter and generater rebuild shop.
It is not legal here in the states and i suspect that it is not legal up
there.
I saw a starter just like that on a old tractor once ;-)

"dave" wrote in message
newss0ib.737328$Ho3.180431@sccrnsc03...


If it isn't turning over like crazy in the summer and the battery and
wiring is good, then there IS a problem with the starter.
This is a very simple system.
I suspect that its a O-320 so the starter will not put metal in the oil
as it's only a bolt on type.

Thanks Dave. This sounds much better than the problem being a lack of a
geared starter. The engine is an O-320-E3D and it hasn't shown any signs of
metal during oil changes. The previous owner had the a/c for 3 years and had
the starter problem all along; he flew 196 hours with this issue, and I've
added another 65 hrs since May.

I would never suggest that you remove the four bolts that hold on the
starter and disconnect the fat wire going to the post and take it down
to your local automotive/tractor starter and generater rebuild shop.
It is not legal here in the states and i suspect that it is not legal up
there.
I saw a starter just like that on a old tractor once ;-)

I would never even considered such advice :-)) ... and yes, I'm no expert
but I suspect it is also illegal around here ... :-)

From what I've heard the starter hardware is Chrysler same as the
alternator, but I haven't had a chance to verify this.

Anyhoo, I'll check into the cost of overhauling the starter and post.

Thanks much.


Jose Vivanco
C-GPYH

On 11-Oct-2003, dave wrote:

If it isn't turning over like crazy in the summer and the battery and
wiring is good, then there IS a problem with the starter.
This is a very simple system.

I agree the symptoms more strongly suggest a problem with the starter (or
connections to the starter) than the battery or charging system. But it's
easy to verify by load testing the battery.

--
-Elliott Drucker

Cover the engine compartment with a thick blanket to keep the heat inside.

Consider changing to a synthetic or semi-synthetic oil if the engine specs
allow it. They make a big difference to the cranking power needed in cold
weather.

Also, getting the plane out of and into the hangar can be tricky when it's
icy. Frozen hangar doors may be hard to open. I've had to resort to all
sorts of tricks when moving our club motorglider in winter without
assistants, including spiked boots and a block and tackle system to pull the
plane over the ice threshold forming at the hangar doors.

But it's great to fly in winter when weather is good.

Nils
Helsinki, Finland


"Jose Vivanco" wrote in message ...


Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

My 140 has required the initial "bump" you describe for the last ten
years I owned it. Our positive braided battery strap has always been in
marginal shape. I will probably replace it this fall. It is split at the
battery post and does not offer the best connection.

What is that hardened putty-like stuff that insulates it from the
battery box? That looks like a really crude solution. Do they make some
sort of (legal) rubber isolator as a replacement, or do I have to
replace it with the same goop?

By the way, I have had ours out in -13 and the oil temp is pretty low,
even with the plate on. No battery boost was needed, even with the aging
cable. With thermal underwear it was still too cool for my tastes. The
heater does not keep the plane at any comfort level below 0F. Here in
Illinois, +10-+15F is about the reasonable limit on a tiedown.
Fortunately, daytime temps don't go lower than that very often.

I see what the other respondent was saying about the hangar woes. Here,
they plow in front of the hangars and leave a nice 10-15 inch bump of
snow that turns to solid ice when the sun bounces off the hangars and
partially melts it during the day and it solidifies at night.

Mike

Jose Vivanco wrote:
I live in Ottawa, Canada and this is my first winter as a PA-28-140 owner.
My airplane does have copper battery cables (cable ?) and an engine heater
but the previous owner warned me; in really cold weather, below (-10C/-23 F)
it won't start without a battery boost. The battery boost is in addition to
plug-in the aircraft for about an hour before departure. The aircraft
doesn't have an engine cover AND it does not have a geared starter.

Are there any other PA-28-140s with a similar problem?

I will be getting an engine cover, but I don't think this alone will
eliminate the battery boost requirements. The battery is two years old.
Normal summer start always looks like the battery is dead, i.e. one blade
goes by and the prop stops turning, ignition back to off, then crank again
and it fires up immediately.

My plan this winter is to get a trickle charger for the battery, blanket
battery warmer plus regular plug-in of the engine heater.

Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

Jose Vivanco

C-GPYH.







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