ELT's

A couple of years ago there was talk of denying entry in to contests
all gliders that were not equipped with ELT's. I immediatly ordered a
121.5 / 406 Mhz model. It came the other day, a year and a half
later. It includes a clunky antenna that would have to be mounted
outside of a carbon hull. I have two questions. One, what happened
to the urgency??? and two has anyone come up with a workable solution
to the antenna issue?

On Aug 23, 3:36*pm, Dick wrote:
One, what happened to the urgency???

In a word, Spot.

The rules still allow a CD to require an ELT or a tracking device like a SPOT. Unfortunately the decision to specifically call out ELT there is a mistake -- a 406 Mhz PLB would be more useful/practical/affordable than an ELT. But its all irrelevant since no CD is going to require an ELT, especially not when SPOT et al are around. Maybe SPOT may get required in future, and that may not be a bad thing.

There is by in large no workable solution to the antenna issue unless you want to drill a hole in your fuselage and promise not to crash upside down or in a way that tears off the antenna, neither is there a solution to problems with lack of proper impact activation. For all the hassle if you want a SARSAT 406 MHz / 121.5MHz beacon device you might as well get a 406Mhz PLB and save a lot of money (and mount it on your parachute harness so it stays with you).

There is just better technology than ELTs and PLBs for most of us. The SPOT being the obvious example, with other similar technology products continuing to emerge.

Darryl

On Aug 23, 4:29*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
The rules still allow a CD to require an ELT or a tracking device like a SPOT. Unfortunately the decision to specifically call out ELT there is a mistake -- a 406 Mhz PLB would be more useful/practical/affordable than an ELT. But its all irrelevant since no CD is going to require an ELT, especially not when SPOT et al are around. Maybe SPOT may get required in future, and that may not be a bad thing.

There is by in large no workable solution to the antenna issue unless you want to drill a hole in your fuselage and promise not to crash upside down or in a way that tears off the antenna, neither is there a solution to problems with lack of proper impact activation. For all the hassle if you want a SARSAT 406 MHz / 121.5MHz beacon device you might as well get a 406Mhz PLB and save a lot of money (and mount it on your parachute harness so it stays with you).

There is just better technology than ELTs and PLBs for most of us. The SPOT being the obvious example, with other similar technology products continuing to emerge.

Darryl

One more thing to point out, which is another reason why Spot is by
far the better solution, is that a PLB will only work if you are not
incapacitated since it needs to be manually activated, unless you'll
have the present of mind to activate it just before you crash...

Ramy

On Aug 23, 3:36*pm, Dick wrote:
A couple of years ago there was talk of denying entry in to contests
all gliders that were not equipped with ELT's. *I immediatly ordered a
121.5 / 406 Mhz model. *It came the other day, a year and a half
later. *It includes a clunky antenna that would have to be mounted
outside of a carbon hull. *I have two questions. *One, what happened
to the urgency??? *and two has anyone come up with a workable solution
to the antenna issue?

Don't know what your flying, but I mounted the antenna right in front
of my instrument panel and the radio is in the baggage compartment
where I can arm it before T/O and turn it off after flight. The
antenna is looking at the canopy and clear of carbon.
JJ

Hi Dick,

ELTs are still great safety devices.

Most contests probably won't require them - requiring SPOT units instead.

One workable internal antenna mounting solution is shown he
http://www.archive.jimphoenix.com/ar...Nfuselage.html
There is also a link to that site on my ELTs page he
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/elts.htm

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Dick" wrote in message
...
A couple of years ago there was talk of denying entry in to contests
all gliders that were not equipped with ELT's. I immediatly ordered a
121.5 / 406 Mhz model. It came the other day, a year and a half
later. It includes a clunky antenna that would have to be mounted
outside of a carbon hull. I have two questions. One, what happened
to the urgency??? and two has anyone come up with a workable solution
to the antenna issue?

While we are on the subject of alternate solutions to an ELT, what is the
common perception of SpiderTracks. From what I've read and discussions at a
local soaring encampment, it uses a more reliable satellite network,
provides fixes every minute, fixes include both altitude and velocity, etc.
http://www.spidertracks.com/fleetpro...FQ0S2godB0EX9g

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F

"Paul Remde" wrote in message ...

Hi Dick,

ELTs are still great safety devices.

Most contests probably won't require them - requiring SPOT units instead.

One workable internal antenna mounting solution is shown he
http://www.archive.jimphoenix.com/ar...Nfuselage.html
There is also a link to that site on my ELTs page he
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/elts.htm

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Dick" wrote in message
...
A couple of years ago there was talk of denying entry in to contests
all gliders that were not equipped with ELT's. I immediatly ordered a
121.5 / 406 Mhz model. It came the other day, a year and a half
later. It includes a clunky antenna that would have to be mounted
outside of a carbon hull. I have two questions. One, what happened
to the urgency??? and two has anyone come up with a workable solution
to the antenna issue?

On 8/24/2011 9:22 AM, Wayne Paul wrote:
While we are on the subject of alternate solutions to an ELT, what is
the common perception of SpiderTracks. From what I've read and
discussions at a local soaring encampment, it uses a more reliable
satellite network, provides fixes every minute, fixes include both
altitude and velocity, etc.
http://www.spidertracks.com/fleetpro...FQ0S2godB0EX9g

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://tinyurl.com/N990-6F


Looks interesting. But the unit is $995, and the monthly cost is maybe
double that of SPOT.

And if you have an Amateur Radio License there is the APRS tracking
option.

Here is a flight in Colorado (where you might think the coverage may
not be good) for this summer:

http://aprs.fi/?call=N8RNW-6&dt=1311...timerange=3600

A device like this: http://www.byonics.com/mt-rtg is easy to stick
in the glider

More information available at: http://www.aprs.org

And if you do not have an Amateur Radio License, get one. It is not
that hard. There are networks of linked repeaters that will give you
radio contact to your crew over distances that your aircraft radio
wont.

On 8/24/11 8:44 AM, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Dick,

ELTs are still great safety devices.

Most contests probably won't require them - requiring SPOT units instead.

One workable internal antenna mounting solution is shown he
http://www.archive.jimphoenix.com/ar...Nfuselage.html
[snip]

I might dispute that an ELT is a "great safety device". They are very
hard to install properly (as the link provided demonstrates very well).
A 406 MHz ELT is a useful distress signaling device if people are aware
of their limitations, and if they are installed properly. And there are
very high activation rate failures--people should just not assume these
will trigger automatically, especially given many of the (unavoidable)
improper installations in gliders. I strongly believe that alternative
technologies including SPOT and/or 406MHz PLBs provide better safety
benefits for less hassle/work/effort/cost. You can buy both a SPOT and
PLB and have money left over compared to a 406 MHz ELT. 121.5 MHz only
ELTs are really not even worth discussing. Spider and other technology
at more expensive price ranges an do even more (and things like the
Garmin GSR-56 are very impressive for high-end GA aircraft).

Workable ELT antenna installation? Sorry but but I can't let this slide
by a "workable install". I know it is very difficult to mount an ELT
antenna on a glider and there are always serious tradeoffs but I don't
want anybody thing the install shown in the link provided really is a
good installation of an ELT antenna.

At least the forward cockpit here is glass fiber but bolting an antenna
on to metal rod going off at 90 degrees from the antenna base is not a
suitable ground plane. The radiation pattern from that is antenna will
be highly directional and weaker than a proper ground plane
installation. A ground plane for a 1/4 wave antenna should be a
conductive disk (or metal screen) or close shape of radius at least the
same as the length of the antenna. Alternately radial wires or rods the
same length or longer can radiate in a disk pattern from the base of
the antenna. You might be able to get away with as few as three
symmetrical ground wires, but four is more usual. And you also need to
get the antenna above any carbon fiber surfaces and an antenna length or
more away from significant sized conductive objects.

So basically you can't get these antennas to fit inside a sailplane and
any install will be a significant compromise. Many of the ELT
installations I've see in gliders are very bad. I would be very
disappointing if ELTs were ever mandated at a contest. You would have
people badly installing these boxes just to comply with a rule. If the
goal was providing reliable, effective emergency signalling you would
have the poor CD and staff needing to reject glider entries with
horrible installations (which might be most entrants).

BTW checking you can hear the ELT over the radio on a nearby receiver is
a next to useless test of ELT antenna performance.

Darryl