contrails

T8 wrote:
On Jan 10, 12:34 pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:


Science has moved well beyond simple correlation; in fact, the potential
for global warming was recognized over a century ago, just based on the
physics of CO2 and the atmosphere (look up Svante Arrhenius). The
investigation of the impact of CO2 is based on physics, not statistics.


You've evidently misread Arrhenius and Angstrom. They thought that
the absorption spectrum of CO2 in Earth's atmosphere was well beyond
saturation and that further increases in CO2 would have no effect.

I didn't mean to imply he had the science correct, only that the
potential was recognized. As I understand it, computing the effects of
the CO2 spectrum really needs a good computer, not hand calculations;
also, I don't think the spectra they had then were sufficiently accurate
to do it properly.

I mentioned Arrhenius just to inform folks that this is not something Al
Gore thought up a few years ago ;-)

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

On Jan 10, 1:45*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:25:00 -0800, Tom Gardner wrote:
Please do read the reference I've given below. It is readable and
regarded as authoritative by *all* "sides" in this debate because it is
a disinterested analysis of our options w.r.t. energy futures.

.../snippage/...

A book that has won plaudits from *all* sides (i.e. big oil, big
electricity, politicians, multiple environmental organisations) is
http://www.withouthotair.com/or its backup site
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/

A quick comment: this is a *great* reference site. However I've just
found out thatwww.withoutair.comis hosted on a bandwidth-limited server
that forbids access once the monthly limit is exceeded. If you get a
'bandwidth exceeded' error when trying to access it, use the backup site.

I mouthed words when I saw the "bandwidth exceeded"; presumably
that's an indirect indication of the high regard in which the book is
held.

I particularly like Mackay's attitude:
- he's sick of hearing "there are huge problems" and
- he's sick of hearing "there are huge opportunities" and
He wants to know which "huge" is huger, and he does that by
generating
numbers from theoretical physics and chemistry, and then cross-
checking
them against measurements.

On Jan 10, 12:25*pm, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Jan 10, 1:45*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:





On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:25:00 -0800, Tom Gardner wrote:
Please do read the reference I've given below. It is readable and
regarded as authoritative by *all* "sides" in this debate because it is
a disinterested analysis of our options w.r.t. energy futures.

.../snippage/...

A book that has won plaudits from *all* sides (i.e. big oil, big
electricity, politicians, multiple environmental organisations) is
http://www.withouthotair.com/orits backup site
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/

A quick comment: this is a *great* reference site. However I've just
found out thatwww.withoutair.comishosted on a bandwidth-limited server
that forbids access once the monthly limit is exceeded. If you get a
'bandwidth exceeded' error when trying to access it, use the backup site.

I mouthed words when I saw the "bandwidth exceeded"; presumably
that's an indirect indication of the high regard in which the book is
held.

I particularly like Mackay's attitude:
* - he's sick of hearing "there are huge problems" and
* - he's sick of hearing "there are huge opportunities" and
He wants to know which "huge" is huger, and he does that by
generating
numbers from theoretical physics and chemistry, and then cross-
checking
them against measurements.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Quote from the book of Gore, chapter 7, verse 3.

Numbers can be our friend if we use them correctly.

On Jan 10, 8:24*pm, Gary Evans wrote:
On Jan 10, 12:25*pm, Tom Gardner wrote:



On Jan 10, 1:45*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:

On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 02:25:00 -0800, Tom Gardner wrote:
Please do read the reference I've given below. It is readable and
regarded as authoritative by *all* "sides" in this debate because it is
a disinterested analysis of our options w.r.t. energy futures.

.../snippage/...

A book that has won plaudits from *all* sides (i.e. big oil, big
electricity, politicians, multiple environmental organisations) is
http://www.withouthotair.com/oritsbackup site
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/

A quick comment: this is a *great* reference site. However I've just
found out thatwww.withoutair.comishostedon a bandwidth-limited server
that forbids access once the monthly limit is exceeded. If you get a
'bandwidth exceeded' error when trying to access it, use the backup site.

I mouthed words when I saw the "bandwidth exceeded"; presumably
that's an indirect indication of the high regard in which the book is
held.

I particularly like Mackay's attitude:
* - he's sick of hearing "there are huge problems" and
* - he's sick of hearing "there are huge opportunities" and
He wants to know which "huge" is huger, and he does that by
generating
numbers from theoretical physics and chemistry, and then cross-
checking
them against measurements.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Quote from the book of Gore, chapter 7, verse 3.

Numbers can be our friend if we use them correctly.

Very true.

MacKay has interesting, simple and plainly valid
"normalisation techniques", *one* of which is:
- work out the land area we each occupy (in the UK)
i.e. area/population, which has to be sufficient for
all our needs if we are to be self-sufficient
- for each use to which that area could be put, how
much can we extract
- what are our current needs, and how could they be
realistically changed
Examples are energy from wind, energy from crops,
energy for food, energy for cars or busses or trains
or aircraft etc.

On Jan 10, 8:24*pm, Gary Evans wrote:
Quote from the book of Gore, chapter 7, verse 3.

Numbers can be our friend if we use them correctly.

As MacKay says ...

In a climate where people don’t understand the numbers, newspapers,
campaigners, companies, and politicians can get away with murder.

We need simple numbers, and we need the numbers to be comprehen-
sible, comparable, and memorable.

With numbers in place, we will be better placed to answer questions
such as these:
1) Can a country like Britain conceivably live on its own renewable
en-
ergy sources?
2) If everyone turns their thermostats one degree closer to the
outside
temperature, drives a smaller car, and switches off phone chargers
when not in use, will an energy crisis be averted?
3) Should the tax on transportation fuels be signi?cantly increased?
4) Should speed-limits on roads be halved?
5) Is someone who advocates windmills over nuclear power stations
“an enemy of the people”?
6) If climate change is “a greater threat than terrorism,” should
govern-
ments criminalize “the glori?cation of travel” and pass laws against
“advocating acts of consumption”?
7) Will a switch to “advanced technologies” allow us to eliminate car-
bon dioxide pollution without changing our lifestyle?
8) Should people be encouraged to eat more vegetarian food?
9) Is the population of the earth six times too big?

More to the point, he has earned tens of millions with his books, movie,
and clean energy investments, and all this money is put into the
nonprofit Alliance for Climate Protection to fight climate change.

*All* the money? *That is impressive. *One might wonder how he pays
his bills.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Just for the sake of accuracy he
The home that the Gores live in (both their home and their offices)
was handed down in the family. Al Gore's father was a senator from TN
for many many years. That is the home where Al Gore grew up. Belle
Meade is a very exclusive enclave suburb outside of Nashville. Al
Gore spent more than the house cost in order to change what he could
to make it more energy efficient. (some failed experiments as well,
like the heated water pipes in the flooring) - solar heating in the
pool house. Also, Al Gore established a new electrical cooperative in
the area. The new cooperative he started purchases alternative energy
to produce electricity. when this was started years ago, few of the
other Nashville residents would purchase electricity from this
cooperative. Al Gore's family spent years spending twice as much as
any other home owner in the area for electricity, because he insisted
on using alternative fuel sources for his electricity. In recent
years, the cost has become more reasonable as more people have joined
the cooperative.
Back to climate control, but until you can make changes to lessen your
carbon footprint and be accurate about the reporting of it....leave
the Gore family out of it. (whether you are democrat or republican, or
green, or independent)

On Jan 10, 1:47*pm, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Jan 10, 8:24*pm, Gary Evans wrote:

Quote from the book of Gore, chapter 7, verse 3.

Numbers can be our friend if we use them correctly.

As MacKay says ...

In a climate where people don’t understand the numbers, newspapers,
campaigners, companies, and politicians can get away with murder.

We need simple numbers, and we need the numbers to be comprehen-
sible, comparable, and memorable.

With numbers in place, we will be better placed to answer questions
such as these:
1) Can a country like Britain conceivably live on its own renewable
en-
ergy sources?
2) If everyone turns their thermostats one degree closer to the
outside
temperature, drives a smaller car, and switches off phone chargers
when not in use, will an energy crisis be averted?
3) Should the tax on transportation fuels be signi?cantly increased?
4) Should speed-limits on roads be halved?
5) Is someone who advocates windmills over nuclear power stations
“an enemy of the people”?
6) If climate change is “a greater threat than terrorism,” should
govern-
ments criminalize “the glori?cation of travel” and pass laws against
“advocating acts of consumption”?
7) Will a switch to “advanced technologies” allow us to eliminate car-
bon dioxide pollution without changing our lifestyle?
8) Should people be encouraged to eat more vegetarian food?
9) Is the population of the earth six times too big?

I sort of liked the "tongue in cheek" idea expressed in (I think) the
San Jose, CA Mercury News that gasoline taxes should escalate with the
amount purchased. For example, 5 gallons would cost $5 while 50
gallons would cost $500. Of course a Hummer could be driven station
to station buying 5 gallons at each but that would get tiresome in a
hurry. Meanwhile, the owner of a super-efficient vehicle would be
rewarded with $1/Gal gas.

On 10 Jan, 20:39, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Jan 10, 8:24*pm, Gary Evans wrote:




MacKay has interesting, simple and plainly valid
"normalisation techniques", *one* of which is:
* - work out the land area we each occupy (in the UK)
* * i.e. area/population, which has to be sufficient for
* * all our needs if we are to be self-sufficient
* - for each use to which that area could be put, how
* * much can we extract
* - what are our current needs, and how could they be
* * realistically changed
Examples are energy from wind, energy from crops,
energy for food, energy for cars or busses or trains
or aircraft etc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The UK Government was very keen on carbon neutral biofuels from crops,
until it was pointed out to them that the land area required would
leave very little for growing food!

Derek Copeland

Oh, dear... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...arts-here.html

bildan wrote:
/snip/
I sort of liked the "tongue in cheek" idea expressed in (I think) the
San Jose, CA Mercury News that gasoline taxes should escalate with the
amount purchased. For example, 5 gallons would cost $5 while 50
gallons would cost $500. Of course a Hummer could be driven station
to station buying 5 gallons at each but that would get tiresome in a
hurry. Meanwhile, the owner of a super-efficient vehicle would be
rewarded with $1/Gal gas.

...which reminds me - after taking a joyride out to a local field not 30
miles away, Quanah (named for an illustrious Indian chief of yore) and
looking over the virtual time capsule in the flight lounge, with its
newpaper cuttings - one describing the opening of the field in 1941 and
the intrepid band of would be pilots who bought a Cub (??) to train
with, onto an obit of one of this gang when he died in his nineties
after a sixty six year marriage (I noticed he did not survive his wife
by long). Oops! I am drifting away. When I put the plane away and noted
the Hobbs and Tach time in my log, I stopped for tea
(Stands the Clock at Half Past Three?) and noticed a convoy of two rag
tops which looked remarkably like the Mercedes sub-compact - is it the
Smart Car? The logo said Coco Kandi ( I am not making this up)
These were the first I'd seen in this little town. One driver said
they go for $6 or $7 grand in Oklahoma City (can this be right?)

Brian W