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IFR use of handheld GPS



 
 
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  #61  
Old May 6th 06, 12:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS

Newps wrote:



Sam Spade wrote:


They is the US taxpayer. I cannot be sued.




You said previously "they don't care until you wreck something." I
took that to mean the FAA, given the context. The taxpayers aren't
sued in any case; it's the government.



Right, it wasn't your money to start with.

If I have that kind of control, then please give me back my money.
  #62  
Old May 6th 06, 12:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS

Dave Butler wrote:


You are not allowed to use an IFR-certified GPS for en route (domestic
airspace) in a non-radar environment except with the special Alaska
provisions.



Perhaps you meant to say you're not allowed to fly off-airway?

If you really meant what you said, please explain / cite the rule.


Part 95, IFR Altitudes establishes MEAs and is the authority for airways
and Jet Routes. Those airways are rules, just like an instrument
approach procedure is a rule.

With instrument approach procedures (in addition to RNAV/GPS IAPs) you
have VOR and NBD IAPs that are approved for overlay flight with GPS.
That is the authorization to substitute GPS for VOR, where authorized on
the chart.

You don't have any overlay (i.e., standalone, non-radar) authorization
fo Victor Airways or Jet Routes. Thus, if you are not in a radar
environment you cannot use RNAV as primary for Victor airways or Jet Routes.

Does anyone care? Only if something goes wrong.

There are a few Q Routes, which are predicated solely on RNAV, but thus
far they have been established where traffic volumne is high and radar
is available. They are pretty much for the airlines in the lower 48,
thus far. And, I believe they are all in the high altitude stratum.

As I said before, Alaska has a special authorization that specifically
permits GPS/RNAV overlay of Victor airways.
  #63  
Old May 6th 06, 03:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:nTo6g.175187$bm6.57868@fed1read04...

The "rule" is that direct routes initiated by ATC are limited to the
service volume of VOR (or rarely, NDBs) and the controller can assure that
MIAs will not be violated.

When the pilot makes the request, though, let the buyer beware.


That's not correct. NAVAID usable distance limits are based on MSL
altitudes, service volumes are based on AGL altitudes. It doesn't matter if
the routing is initiated by ATC or requested by the pilot, radar monitoring
is required when operating outside of the specified altitude and distance
limitations in controlled airspace unless approval has been obtained from
the Frequency Management and Flight Inspection Offices to exceed them or the
requested routing is via an MTR.


  #64  
Old May 6th 06, 04:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:nTo6g.175187$bm6.57868@fed1read04...

The "rule" is that direct routes initiated by ATC are limited to the
service volume of VOR (or rarely, NDBs) and the controller can assure that
MIAs will not be violated.

When the pilot makes the request, though, let the buyer beware.



That's not correct. NAVAID usable distance limits are based on MSL
altitudes, service volumes are based on AGL altitudes. It doesn't matter if
the routing is initiated by ATC or requested by the pilot, radar monitoring
is required when operating outside of the specified altitude and distance
limitations in controlled airspace unless approval has been obtained from
the Frequency Management and Flight Inspection Offices to exceed them or the
requested routing is via an MTR.



What did I say that is not correct, and inconsistent with 7110.65 4-1-1?

  #65  
Old May 6th 06, 05:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:Nd37g.175259$bm6.25645@fed1read04...

What did I say that is not correct, and inconsistent with 7110.65 4-1-1?


"The 'rule' is that direct routes initiated by ATC are limited to the
service volume of VOR (or rarely, NDBs) and the controller can assure that
MIAs will not be violated."


  #66  
Old May 6th 06, 06:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:Nd37g.175259$bm6.25645@fed1read04...

What did I say that is not correct, and inconsistent with 7110.65 4-1-1?



"The 'rule' is that direct routes initiated by ATC are limited to the
service volume of VOR (or rarely, NDBs) and the controller can assure that
MIAs will not be violated."



What in the following 7110.65 instruction is inconsistant with what I
stated?

4-1-1. ALTITUDE AND DISTANCE LIMITATIONS
When specifying a route other than an established airway or route, do
not exceed the limitations in the table on any portion of the route
which lies within controlled airspace. (For altitude and distance
limitations, see TBL 4-1-1, TBL 4-1-2, TBL 4-1-3, and TBL 4-1-4.) (For
correct application of altitude and distance limitations see FIG 4-1-1
and FIG 4-1-2.)


TBL 4-1-1 - VOR/VORTAC/TACAN NAVAIDs
Normal Usable Altitudes and Radius Distances
Class Altitude Distance (miles)
T 12,000 and below 25
L Below 18,000 40
H Below 14,500 40
H 14,500 - 17,999 100
H 18,000 - FL 450 130
H Above FL 450 100
  #67  
Old May 6th 06, 10:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:2n57g.175262$bm6.158095@fed1read04...

What in the following 7110.65 instruction is inconsistant with what I
stated?

4-1-1. ALTITUDE AND DISTANCE LIMITATIONS
When specifying a route other than an established airway or route, do not
exceed the limitations in the table on any portion of the route which lies
within controlled airspace. (For altitude and distance limitations, see
TBL 4-1-1, TBL 4-1-2, TBL 4-1-3, and TBL 4-1-4.) (For correct application
of altitude and distance limitations see FIG 4-1-1 and FIG 4-1-2.)


TBL 4-1-1 - VOR/VORTAC/TACAN NAVAIDs
Normal Usable Altitudes and Radius Distances Class Altitude Distance
(miles) T 12,000 and below 25 L Below 18,000 40 H Below 14,500 40 H
14,500 - 17,999 100 H 18,000 - FL 450 130 H Above FL 450 100



TBL 4-1-1 - VOR/VORTAC/TACAN NAVAIDs

Normal Usable Altitudes and Radius Distances
Class Altitude Distance (miles)
T 12,000 and below 25
L Below 18,000 40
H Below 14,500 40
H 14,500 - 17,999 100
H 18,000 - FL 450 130
H Above FL 450 100


  #68  
Old May 7th 06, 02:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:2n57g.175262$bm6.158095@fed1read04...

What in the following 7110.65 instruction is inconsistant with what I
stated?

4-1-1. ALTITUDE AND DISTANCE LIMITATIONS
When specifying a route other than an established airway or route, do not
exceed the limitations in the table on any portion of the route which lies
within controlled airspace. (For altitude and distance limitations, see
TBL 4-1-1, TBL 4-1-2, TBL 4-1-3, and TBL 4-1-4.) (For correct application
of altitude and distance limitations see FIG 4-1-1 and FIG 4-1-2.)


TBL 4-1-1 - VOR/VORTAC/TACAN NAVAIDs
Normal Usable Altitudes and Radius Distances Class Altitude Distance
(miles) T 12,000 and below 25 L Below 18,000 40 H Below 14,500 40 H
14,500 - 17,999 100 H 18,000 - FL 450 130 H Above FL 450 100




TBL 4-1-1 - VOR/VORTAC/TACAN NAVAIDs

Normal Usable Altitudes and Radius Distances
Class Altitude Distance (miles)
T 12,000 and below 25
L Below 18,000 40
H Below 14,500 40
H 14,500 - 17,999 100
H 18,000 - FL 450 130
H Above FL 450 100


Well, gee wiz, you're better with tabs than I am.

Nonetheless, the references both you and I cite are identical.

So, you didn't answer my question, except to implicitly admit you are
wrong on substance. (ye gads!)
  #69  
Old May 7th 06, 02:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:KTb7g.175481$bm6.106495@fed1read04...

Well, gee wiz, you're better with tabs than I am.


Among many other things, I'm sure.



Nonetheless, the references both you and I cite are identical.


I didn't cite a reference, I just answered your questions.



So, you didn't answer my question, except to implicitly admit you are
wrong on substance. (ye gads!)



Actually, I did answer your question, twice. You're just too dim to realize
it.

You wrote, some time ago now; "The 'rule' is that direct routes initiated by
ATC are limited to the service volume of VOR (or rarely, NDBs) and the
controller can assure that
MIAs will not be violated." The "rule" has nothing to do with service
volumes. NAVAID usable distance limits in FAAO 7110.65 are based on MSL
altitudes and flight levels, service volumes are based on AGL altitudes.

Is the bulb any brighter now?


  #70  
Old May 7th 06, 02:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
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Default IFR use of handheld GPS


"Newps" wrote in message
. ..

If you are on a random route
you're supposed to be in radar contact, some centers don't care. Salt
Lake frequently allows aircraft to go direct for hundreds of miles without
being in radar contact.


An ARTCC is an entity incapable of caring. Some controllers are just poorly
trained, they don't know any better. Standards have fallen rather sharply
in the last fifteen years or so.



 




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