Plane shopping

According to schedule, I anticipate to be in the market for something like
an Archer II (most likely) or an Archer III around the end of the year.
I've been drooling on various shoping rags for about a year now. As such
I have several questions. Hopefully you won't mind answering!

Is plane shopping in any way (down south - Texas) influenced by season?

What type of lead time should I expect in shopping for a plane? Is this
typically a one month effort or so or possibly many, many months trying to
find a good deal on a good plane?

I figure in a state as large as Texas (with OK, and LA not too
far away), on a fairly common plane like an Archer, finding one shouldn't
be too hard. Am I being naive here?

While there seems to be a wealth of plane information, I'm having trouble
finding information on various avionics. Is there a place you guys can
point me? What brands to stay away from? What brands are preferred? I
know enough to know I want a plane that already has the avionics I want.
The problem is, I don't know enough about the brands to have any sense of
general worth or reliability.

Another pilot offered to give me a plane buyer's book of some type which
talks about the over all process. As I get a little closer I figure I'll
get the book which talk about buying a Piper PA28 series of planes. I'll
have to google for the book name. This all sound like I'm heading down
the right path?

My father is an experienced plane buyer so I won't be doing this alone.
Just the same, I want to learn as much as I can. This sound like I'm
heading in the right direction?


Greg

According to schedule, I anticipate to be in the market for something like
an Archer II (most likely) or an Archer III around the end of the year.
I've been drooling on various shoping rags for about a year now. As such
I have several questions. Hopefully you won't mind answering!

Is plane shopping in any way (down south - Texas) influenced by season?

You're in luck! It's hurricane season!

What type of lead time should I expect in shopping for a plane? Is this
typically a one month effort or so or possibly many, many months trying to
find a good deal on a good plane?

Hurricane season generally runs June 1 to December 1. However, the most
common months for hurricanes to reach landfall on the Gulfcoast are
August, September and October. Generally, the insurance companies will
shop the affected aircraft within a couple weeks after they can gain
access to the storm struck area. This is subject to FEMA restrictions.

I figure in a state as large as Texas (with OK, and LA not too
far away), on a fairly common plane like an Archer, finding one shouldn't
be too hard. Am I being naive here?

Search the FAA database for the model aircraft you are interested in.
You can usually tell by the owner registration in what city they are
located. Or, you can visit any of the airports in a given area. If you
see any you like, record the N-numbers so you can locate them quickly on
the insurance company lists.

While there seems to be a wealth of plane information, I'm having trouble
finding information on various avionics. Is there a place you guys can
point me? What brands to stay away from? What brands are preferred? I
know enough to know I want a plane that already has the avionics I want.
The problem is, I don't know enough about the brands to have any sense of
general worth or reliability.

Don't worry, avionics can pretty much fit in any airplane. This is where
walking around the ramp at airport and looking in the airplanes to see
what avionics they have in the stack comes in. If you see some nice
avionics you are interested in, again, record the aircraft N-numbers and
watch the insurance lists. It's a toss up as to whether high-wing or
low-wing aircraft will provide more protection from the elements after a
hurricane blows them around a little.

Another pilot offered to give me a plane buyer's book of some type which
talks about the over all process. As I get a little closer I figure I'll
get the book which talk about buying a Piper PA28 series of planes. I'll
have to google for the book name. This all sound like I'm heading down
the right path?

When it comes to salvage, those books don't mean a thing. The insurance
company usually will accept 10% of what they paid out. For those prices
you can buy a couple and make one good one out them at a substantial
savings over what you would pay a private owner for.


My father is an experienced plane buyer so I won't be doing this alone.
Just the same, I want to learn as much as I can. This sound like I'm
heading in the right direction?

How much experience does he have dealing with insurance companies?

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 03:51:03 +0000, john smith wrote:

According to schedule, I anticipate to be in the market for something like
an Archer II (most likely) or an Archer III around the end of the year.
I've been drooling on various shoping rags for about a year now. As such
I have several questions. Hopefully you won't mind answering!

Is plane shopping in any way (down south - Texas) influenced by season?

You're in luck! It's hurricane season!


Meaning people tend to sell before or during hurricane season? I think
I'm confused now.

What type of lead time should I expect in shopping for a plane? Is this
typically a one month effort or so or possibly many, many months trying to
find a good deal on a good plane?

Hurricane season generally runs June 1 to December 1. However, the most
common months for hurricanes to reach landfall on the Gulfcoast are
August, September and October. Generally, the insurance companies will
shop the affected aircraft within a couple weeks after they can gain
access to the storm struck area. This is subject to FEMA restrictions.

Are you saying the best time to buy is after a plane has been damaged?
This doesn't sound like a route I'd want to go.


I figure in a state as large as Texas (with OK, and LA not too
far away), on a fairly common plane like an Archer, finding one shouldn't
be too hard. Am I being naive here?

Search the FAA database for the model aircraft you are interested in.
You can usually tell by the owner registration in what city they are
located. Or, you can visit any of the airports in a given area. If you
see any you like, record the N-numbers so you can locate them quickly on
the insurance company lists.

To what end?


While there seems to be a wealth of plane information, I'm having trouble
finding information on various avionics. Is there a place you guys can
point me? What brands to stay away from? What brands are preferred? I
know enough to know I want a plane that already has the avionics I want.
The problem is, I don't know enough about the brands to have any sense of
general worth or reliability.

Don't worry, avionics can pretty much fit in any airplane.

That I knew...with some limitations about x working with y.

This is where
walking around the ramp at airport and looking in the airplanes to see
what avionics they have in the stack comes in.

Right...but that doesn't tell me if the entire stack is pretty good (brand
associated with reliability) or a say, half the stack has a history of
known problems which most pilots have given up on and replaced. I don't
want to have to replace anything unless it brakes after the purchase.

If you see some nice
avionics you are interested in, again, record the aircraft N-numbers and
watch the insurance lists. It's a toss up as to whether high-wing or
low-wing aircraft will provide more protection from the elements after a
hurricane blows them around a little.

Okay, now I'm really confused. Are you saying storm damage creates a
"fire sales" on avionics, thusly making them a good avenue for cheap
avionics? Again, I'd really not like to put in additional avionics. I'd
rather find a plane, with a reliable stack, which I like. The problem is,
I don't know jack about the various brands. Even here I've heard some
curse the name of various vendors.


Another pilot offered to give me a plane buyer's book of some type which
talks about the over all process. As I get a little closer I figure I'll
get the book which talk about buying a Piper PA28 series of planes. I'll
have to google for the book name. This all sound like I'm heading down
the right path?

When it comes to salvage, those books don't mean a thing. The insurance
company usually will accept 10% of what they paid out. For those prices
you can buy a couple and make one good one out them at a substantial
savings over what you would pay a private owner for.

Once again, I'm confused. What does salvage have to do with purchasing a
plane?



My father is an experienced plane buyer so I won't be doing this alone.
Just the same, I want to learn as much as I can. This sound like I'm
heading in the right direction?

How much experience does he have dealing with insurance companies?

Ditto here too. Are you advocating buying a salvaged plane or the
avionics? I want to buy a 100% working craft with a quality stack, which
suites my preferences.

Greg

Hey Greg, good luck. My experience is only in having baought and sold one
aircraft, a PA28-180, and buying into another partnership. There are others here
with much more experience. I'll offer what I think I know.

Greg Copeland wrote:
According to schedule, I anticipate to be in the market for something like
an Archer II (most likely) or an Archer III around the end of the year.
I've been drooling on various shoping rags for about a year now. As such
I have several questions. Hopefully you won't mind answering!

Is plane shopping in any way (down south - Texas) influenced by season?

What type of lead time should I expect in shopping for a plane? Is this
typically a one month effort or so or possibly many, many months trying to
find a good deal on a good plane?

As you might expect, it probably depends more on you and your shopping style
than anything else. If you want to make it a one-month effort, that's doable. If
you want to shop around, you might get a better price or a better airplane (or
not). In the shopping-around process, you learn to recognize a cream-puff when
you see it, and that makes it possible to act quickly when one comes on the
market. The real cream-puffs don't stay on the market for very long.


I figure in a state as large as Texas (with OK, and LA not too
far away), on a fairly common plane like an Archer, finding one shouldn't
be too hard. Am I being naive here?

No, I think that's a reasonable assumption. Don't overlook local advertising
like local newspapers and FBO bulletin boards. The best planes are sold locally
and never get advertised in publications with wider distribution.


While there seems to be a wealth of plane information, I'm having trouble
finding information on various avionics. Is there a place you guys can
point me? What brands to stay away from? What brands are preferred? I
know enough to know I want a plane that already has the avionics I want.
The problem is, I don't know enough about the brands to have any sense of
general worth or reliability.

http://www.avionix.com Look for "Avionics Guidebook"

I found the valuation software from http://www.aeroprice.com useful for
evaluating avionics and also general value of an aircraft. It's particularly
useful if you've decided on a particular model, i.e. PA28. The price is
reasonable, I think, and is small potatos compared to the amount you're about to
invest. I'm a satisfied customer. It's been a few years since I've used it, though.

The AOPA and Trade-A-Plane online valuations are also useful for comparing
avionics, but keep in mind that they both tend to overestimate the value of the
overall aircraft.


Another pilot offered to give me a plane buyer's book of some type which
talks about the over all process. As I get a little closer I figure I'll
get the book which talk about buying a Piper PA28 series of planes. I'll
have to google for the book name. This all sound like I'm heading down
the right path?

Sure.

My father is an experienced plane buyer so I won't be doing this alone.
Just the same, I want to learn as much as I can. This sound like I'm
heading in the right direction?

You'll do OK. Keep us informed!

Dave

Just some random thoughts:

I would place my highest priority on a straight and clean airframe.
Everything else can be fixed with money. This doesn't mean a plane with
damage history is out of the question, just a caution to make sure it was
repaired properly, which may or may not be easy to determine. Just because
the logs said it was repaired properly is no guarantee of the quality of
workmanship.

Then I would look for an airplane that has as all of avionics that you want
already installed. This is where you will get the most value for your dollar
compared with trying to upgrade the avionics afterwards. It's almost like
finding money. Your old stuff won't be worth much and the new avionics plus
installation will be very costly.

I would look for mid time engines that have had no major repairs, no known
problems, normal oil usage, and good compressions. Again, this should be
the best value while providing several years worth of service and a history
of trouble free operations. Check the logs for regular oil changes.

Study the log books. Spend twice as much time looking at the logs as you do
at the airplane. Look for trends and recurring problems. Talk to the
previous owners, not just the seller, and talk to the previous mechanics.
Talk to the shop that overhauled the engine, get a parts list of what was
replaced with new or overhauled. Look for evidence of Service Bulletins
being complied with. These are not a requirement for a part 91 operator and
may be evidence of an owner that wasn't afraid to spend money on his
airplane. If you see SB's being complied with but no 100hour inspections
you can assume that it wasn't on a part 135 service, but the owner pulled
extra cash out of his own pocket. You may find many other "extras" on an
airplane like this. We did.

Something that you can do right now is study the ADs for the airframe,
engines, and accessories. Learn which repetitive and or inspection AD's can
be eliminated by a one time repair or alteration. Finding repetitive AD's
that have been eliminated in such fashion is like finding money because you
won't have to have your A&P spend your money on those in the future. Again,
study the AD's so you know what to look for in the logs.

Jim

One more comment.
If you take your time shopping and are picky enough to dismiss several
potential airplanes, at some point in time you will become frustrated with
the shopping and subconsciously declare that "the next plane is IT! I'm done
looking and just want to fly". RESIST this temptation and have patience.
When that feeling hits you, be SURE to get a second and third opinion from
trusted sources.

Great airplanes stand out and are "no brainer" purchases. The ones to look
out for are the mediocre so-so, fixer-uppers that tempt us when we're
frustrated from looking. Be careful. There will be enough to fix and
tinker with on even the BEST airplane on the market.

Good luck.
Jim

Hi Greg,

A guy on our field has a PA28 for sale (Cherokee). I think its a good
value for what I think you can get it for. I'm not involved with the
owner (ie: i'm not getting commission)... but i did own the plane at
one time.

www.internetworks.ca/gnve is a little page i put together for the
vendor to post some photos. Disregard the price on that page -- i
believe that the price now is in the 40s.

Good luck shopping.

-dr


Greg Copeland wrote:
According to schedule, I anticipate to be in the market for something like
an Archer II (most likely) or an Archer III around the end of the year.
I've been drooling on various shoping rags for about a year now. As such
I have several questions. Hopefully you won't mind answering!

Is plane shopping in any way (down south - Texas) influenced by season?

What type of lead time should I expect in shopping for a plane? Is this
typically a one month effort or so or possibly many, many months trying to
find a good deal on a good plane?

I figure in a state as large as Texas (with OK, and LA not too
far away), on a fairly common plane like an Archer, finding one shouldn't
be too hard. Am I being naive here?

While there seems to be a wealth of plane information, I'm having trouble
finding information on various avionics. Is there a place you guys can
point me? What brands to stay away from? What brands are preferred? I
know enough to know I want a plane that already has the avionics I want.
The problem is, I don't know enough about the brands to have any sense of
general worth or reliability.

Another pilot offered to give me a plane buyer's book of some type which
talks about the over all process. As I get a little closer I figure I'll
get the book which talk about buying a Piper PA28 series of planes. I'll
have to google for the book name. This all sound like I'm heading down
the right path?

My father is an experienced plane buyer so I won't be doing this alone.
Just the same, I want to learn as much as I can. This sound like I'm
heading in the right direction?


Greg

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 11:32:14 -0700, Dico wrote:

A guy on our field has a PA28 for sale (Cherokee). I think its a good
value for what I think you can get it for. I'm not involved with the
owner (ie: i'm not getting commission)... but i did own the plane at
one time.

Thanks, but I'm really wanting a PA28-180 or 181. I will require the
extra load for at least the next 3-5 years. Besides, the extra horse
power and climb is always nice to have. For what we lack in altitude
in Texas, we make up for in heat. As such, the extra horse, improved
load, and slightly faster cruise rules out a 140/150 for me.


Greg

1. Subscribe to Tradeaplane. Learn how to use appraiser.
2. Find plane
3. Call buyer, get N-number and ownership info. Negotiate price.
(Buyers market right now--offers of 20% off or more are common). Agree
on price and delivery if plane meets your specs (especially
avionics--they are expensive)
4. Contact A&P on the field and tell him to give plane a compression
check, look for metal in oil filter and check for corrosion and look a
the logs. 3 hours max. Make SURE you get a compression check.
5. If plane passes A&P and looks promising, do a title search through
aircraft title company (AOPA).
6. Fly or drive to airplane. Check out paint, upholstry, avionics and
condtion. Fly airplane. If it's ok, buy it and take delivery (usually
the owner or someone he hires will deliver, but whatever you can
arrange). If you can arrange it, fly it back yourself (probably with a
CFI).
7. Enjoy (and spend)

Greg Copeland wrote:
According to schedule, I anticipate to be in the market for something like
an Archer II (most likely) or an Archer III around the end of the year.

Very nice...hope the hunt goes well.

What type of lead time should I expect in shopping for a plane? Is this
typically a one month effort or so or possibly many, many months trying to
find a good deal on a good plane?

It took us six months to purchase our Arrow. We had two prior deals
where we'd made an offer (one rejected, we walked, the other accepted
then the seller went crazy) before we found the third/final plane.
There were dry periods were nothing came on the market. When we finally
found our Arrow, it was two weeks from hitting Trade-A-Plane until we
sealed the deal and flew the plane home.

Know what you're looking for, be ready to walk away at any time, be
ready to pull the trigger when the right plane comes along.

My father is an experienced plane buyer so I won't be doing this alone.
Just the same, I want to learn as much as I can. This sound like I'm
heading in the right direction?

Great that your Dad has gone through the process before and I'm sure
you'll leverage his knowledge as much as possible. Still, it's kind of
like buying your first house...only different :-) Good luck!


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane
Arrow N2104T

"To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
- Rod Machado

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)