"We're with the FAA"

"TxSrv" wrote in message
. ..
Newps wrote:

Why? Do you mean they don't need a state law stating they can require
showing the certificate?

It's already a federal law, no state law necessary.

It's only an administrative regulation -- stating "upon request," implying the
request has to be lawful under state law. Tell the cop, "I don't have one to
show you." Absent state law (all have such a law), then the cop can't do
anything to prevent you from operating an aircraft.

Perhaps true (I doubt it), but that action would still put you in direct
violation of 61.3 (I) and could cost you your license if the Feds got wind of
it.

Vaughn

On 26 Aug 2006 11:19:28 -0700, "Chad" wrote:

I've read lots of stories about it and if finally happened to me, I had
my first ramp check. I flew into South Haven, MI (LWA) today to get
fuel, it's self serve, and as I was fueling two men wearing ID's around
their necks and holding clipboards approached my plane. I couldn't
read what their ID's said, but I thought to myself they may be FAA
guys. They both stood by the pump and didn't interupt me while I was
fueling. As soon as I finished pumping they introduced themselves and
said "we're with the FAA, from the Grand Rapids FSDO". The first thing
they asked is if I was Part 91 and where I flew in from and where I was
going next and why I flew into South Haven. I said to get fuel. Next
they wanted to see my license, medical, registration, and airworthyness
certificate. I gave them all the documents. They asked when the last
annual on the plane was and where it was done, I told them and they
wrote that information down. They asked if I had a GPS and if it was
IFR or VFR, I said VFR and they didn't ask any further questions about
that. They also looked at the dataplate on the plane. They asked how
many hours I had and then just some small talk for about 10 mins. They
asked at least two or three times about where I was flying to next. I
think they were mainly checking to see if I was flying Part 135 or
doing an illegal charter. The weather was 5 miles vis. and clear, but
very hazy. They did ask if I knew if the weather was going to get any
better. I suppose they were checking to see if I had checked the
weather. They were both very nice and the whole thing was pretty
painless.


I realize that this is the "owning" newsgroup, but I read it anyway.
The whole ramp check thing sounds fairly benign until they get to
specifics about the inspections on the plane. That's a tough one for
renters. You can say what you want about what a renter should review
prior to flying the plane, but in the real world reviewing the logs
and documenting details related to annuals and other inspections is
not typically easy or even feasible. I wonder what they do if I told
them that I had no idea when the plane was annualled. I rent from the
same place (usually) and I know that they adhere to the ispection
requiremnets but I do not know the details. Would they or could they
ground me?
RNR

It's only an administrative regulation -- stating "upon request," implying
the request has to be lawful under state law.
Tell the cop, "I don't have one to show you." Absent state law
(all have such a law),then the cop can't do anything to prevent
you from operating an aircraft.

Perhaps true (I doubt it), but that action would still put you in direct
violation of 61.3 (I) and could cost you your license if the Feds got wind of
it.

So if I ask them to produce the applicable regs to show me what they are
and aren't allowed to do, and they don't produce them, is it a valid
ramp check?

Constitutional... And a lifetime of dealing with governmental
bureaucrats...

A LEO cannot pull you over and demand your license and registration
just because he needs a few more entries in his shift log (not to say
it is not done on a pretext)...
A bureaucrat who does not have LEO authority does not have greater
authority than that... If he wants to inspect my certificates he can
send a business letter and my attorney will negotiate a time and place,
what will be examined, etc...

In 50+ years of active flying I have been accosted on a ramp three
times by people claiming to have power over me... I have refused to
submit... Those of you who have had warm and fuzzy encounters, good
for you... Just be glad you were not treated like Bob Hoover... Had Bob
had legal counsel present he would not have surrendered his
certificates to the inspectors and that would have been the end of it..
Yes, 90% of FAA inspectors are decent folks... God help you if the
ramp inspector is one of the 10% ...

Now, having said that let me make one caveat... You cannot refuse the
orders of a LEO - well you can but there is a price... He may be
totally wrong, but established case law gives him the power to force
you to submit... You get to sue him later if he is wrong...
And having been a police surgeon in my wasted youth I understand the
street bull... He is the top dog in the pack... Refusal to obey is a
direct challenge to his authority, his masculinity, his standing in the
streets, and his self esteem... He will likely bludgeon you into
hamburger... And unless there is someone holding a video camera on him,
he will get away with it...

OTOH, some guy who works for a governmental agency, is just that - some
guy...

denny

"John Godwin" wrote in message
. 3.50...
"Matt Barrow" wrote in
:

I'm a bit hung over; what authority outside the FAA might that be?
(Yes, Customs is one).

Police, Sheriff, etc.

Anyone else outside LE?

"TxSrv" wrote in message
. ..

An FAR is just an administrative regulation of the fed gov't. Doesn't give
state LEO's any police powers.

Hmmm...a LEO without police powers?

Matt Barrow wrote:
"TxSrv" wrote in message
. ..
An FAR is just an administrative regulation of the fed gov't. Doesn't give
state LEO's any police powers.

Hmmm...a LEO without police powers?


Mere Federal Regulations are not what grant local LEOs police
powers. State law and its constitution, as interpreted by the
courts, do that. The mere words in an FAR "upon request" [of a
local LEO] doesn't grant any authority to make the request. A
state law has to do that, as the case in virtually all states.

Fred F.

NW_Pilot wrote:

Jay, 100% correct it is a non event and did you get the message that I
posted a link on my links page to www.AlexisParkInn.com check it out @
http://www.aircraftdelivery.net/links if you have a small banner fell free
to e-mail it to me and I will place it on the site for ya!

I was unable to get to http://www.aircraftdelivery.net/links
it reports:



Problem Report


There was a communication problem.

Message ID


TCP_ERROR

Problem Description


The system was unable to communicate with the server.

Possible Problem Cause


* The Web server may be down.
* The Web server may be too busy.
* The Web server may be experiencing other problems, preventing it from responding to clients.
* The communication path may be experiencing problems.


Is anyone else able to get through?

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!"
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jeratfrii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 240 Young Eagles!

("john smith" wrote)
So if I ask them to produce the applicable regs to show me what they are
and aren't allowed to do, and they don't produce them, is it a valid ramp
check?


Yes. They're not like 'speed limit' signs. Regs are invisible, but they
still apply.

However, if the inspectors don't have, on their persons, two forms of proper
ID...

Driver's license, Passport photo, Birth certificate g

"I've been doing this for 25 years, and we do not need two forms of ID for a
ramp check."

"Unfortunately, yes you do. It's in the Patriot Act. Sorry"

"Oh."

"You are a Patriot ...aren't you?"

[Starting to sweat] "Yes. Yes. Of course we are.

"Good."


Montblack

"RNR" wrote in message
...
On 26 Aug 2006 11:19:28 -0700, "Chad" wrote:
I rent from the
same place (usually) and I know that they adhere to the ispection
requiremnets but I do not know the details. Would they or could they
ground me?

At a certain amount of risk of bing wrong because I don't have the time to
look up the applicable FAR, the short answer is "NO". The operator of the plane
is responsible for that stuff. I have no idea of the annual date or even the
100-hour status of the planes I fly. I trust the operator to do a professional
job on that stuff, and the operator is not about to leave the plane's logs out
where they can be misplaced.

Now if the inspector finds something that makes the plane obviously
airworthy that the pilot could/should have caught on a preflight...

Vaughn


RNR