Didn't know that....

"Maxwell" #$$9#@%%%.^^^ wrote in :


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
cavedweller wrote in
news:6a07dabb-6fb7-4cdb-9057-
:

On Jan 21, 1:15 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:


Nope, not in this case. if they didn;t fly the airplane, the holes
in the bottom of the airplane would have been the least of their
problems, since they would have made significantly larger holes.

Bertie

...at last, the magic words. "Fly the airplane". Good on ya,
Bertie.



ell, it's obvious, even if you're only flying a hang glider...

Isn't it?

Bertie

the only thing obvious here is you're a dumb ass wanna be.



Bwawahwhahwhahw!

Oh ouch wannabe boi



Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Oh God a Barbie jet.

Yea, ok, I see you fly the big big jets, you are the real pilot, the
real McCoy., good for you.



OK, let me explain this to you one last time.


When the situation is outside of traing and time is short, the checklist
goes out the window. End of story. The reason we do so much training is
that when something happens, the training is what takes over. Since we
don;'t train for a double engine failure after takeoff in a built up
area, there is no procedure and it is up to the commander to cobble
something together in the time available. Your continued whining that
the checklist is that important demonstrates inexperience or idiocy.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the former.



Bertie

Well you said that the non flying pilot was busy doing check list, now
you say no check list in a emergency, well ok.

But anyway I see you now reached your limit of a normal conversation and
you starting your usual name calling and insulting who has a different
opinion, as usual after a few posts.

Well, it's ok, I gave my opinion you gave yours, no need to continue.

See you on another thread, eventually.

"Maxwell" #$$9#@%%%.^^^ wrote in news

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
wrote in
news:ee6cc075-b399-4bf8-8b42-950a970cfdd0
@t39g2000prh.googlegroups.com
:


With all my arguments against worrying about the dip, er, 'ditch'
switch I wonder of what benefit it would truly be in any condition
other dead level calm? Ditching at see would (I would think) most
often occur in conditions that would tear up the aircraft
sufficiently to make 'the Switch' totally useless.

Well, experience has certainly proven this to be the case!

In this particular case it appears, from reading an article early
on, that one or more pax may have partially opened a rear door and
allowed water ingress and this, more than anything, contributed to
the tail down sinking.

Yeh, makes sense.

It all comes down to basic necessities. I've had two high speed
parachute malfunctions and my first reaction was "what do I do to
get a chute open right f'ing now?" I didn't worry until after that
occurred as to wear I would land or what I would have for dinner.
You really have to experience something to realize the difference a
'real' emergency will make in your focus. Failure to maintain that
focus results in the 'oh ****' moments.


Well, exactly, Even in the sim when a mad situation is thrown up
where things are forgotten, such as checklist items, but the
performance as whole
was exemplerary, the crew get kudos, not a kicking. It encourages the
kind of thinking that makes situations like this come out as they
did.


Bertie


Are you drunk again?


Nope.

Is your wife beating you again?





Bertie

"Maxwell" #$$9#@%%%.^^^ wrote in :


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
Flydive wrote in :

wrote:
On Jan 20, 3:51 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:28:27 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
Where on the checklist is the instruction to flip this switch?
The manual states:

At 2000 ft

CABIN PRESS MODE SEL.............................Check AUTO
ENG 1 & 2 BLEED, APU BLEED.......................OFF
P/B DITCHING.....................................ON
P/A............................................."TOU CHDOWN IN ONE
MINUTE" Aim for an impact with an 11° body angle and minimum ROD.

Poster

However if you're also working an inflight engine unstart which takes
precedence? Clarification: two engine unstart w/inflight emergency.
Quite a bit different from a situation that begins at cruise altitude
or with only *one* emergency rather than a sequence of events. As a
PAX I would rather know that the crew are concentrating on landing
the aircraft (ditching) as gently as possible.

That silly switch won't do a thing to save the buoyancy if the
fuselage is fractured by a rough ditching...a point one everyone
seems to miss.

I would hazard (grin) a guess that the final review will show them to
have maintained situational awareness with the concomitant priority
management.


Again, there are 2 pilots in the cockpit, only one is steering the
aircraft. If the captain was flying the aircraft, what was the copilot
doing in those 7-8 minutes if he was not going through the emergency
checklist? What the use of a perfect water landing if then the
aircraft quickly fill with water because the ditching checklist has
not been done?


There were dozens of things he would be doing. One, determining waht the
problem was.
Then, dealing with the immediate problem, an engine failure. Immediate
relight attempt. Probably the APU was fired up to assist in the relight.
as they would have been too slow for a windmill start.
Then a quick call to ATC and probalby a couple of nav selections for the
captain to look for a runway they could plunk it on.Then back to the
relight drill. We're taught to keep trying that to the bitter end, BTW.
They take a minute or so so he wouldn't have had time for more than one
or two, and that would have been after the APU had fired up, say at
abotu 1200'. A couple of calls to the cabin would have been tossed in
their somewhere as well.
The act of picking up the book and finding the ditching checklist would
have taken a good 20-30 seconds...Time they simply did not have.
And this scenario is not done in the sim, so there would have been no
trigger for it. BTW, I'm beign generous with the actions they may or may
not have accomplished in the time they had. But all of them would come
ahead of doing a "nice to do " ditching checklist.



Bertie

save the bed time story, you're starting to rattle more than Dudley.


Yeh, right wannabe boi.

Bertie

Flydive wrote in :

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:

Oh God a Barbie jet.

Yea, ok, I see you fly the big big jets, you are the real pilot, the
real McCoy., good for you.


Nope I fly little airplanes too.



OK, let me explain this to you one last time.


When the situation is outside of traing and time is short, the
checklist goes out the window. End of story. The reason we do so much
training is that when something happens, the training is what takes
over. Since we don;'t train for a double engine failure after takeoff
in a built up area, there is no procedure and it is up to the
commander to cobble something together in the time available. Your
continued whining that the checklist is that important demonstrates
inexperience or idiocy. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and
assume the former.



Bertie

Well you said that the non flying pilot was busy doing check list, now
you say no check list in a emergency, well ok.

Nope, I didn't say that.


But anyway I see you now reached your limit of a normal conversation
and you starting your usual name calling and insulting who has a
different opinion, as usual after a few posts.


You call waht you were doing normal conversation? I see.

Well, it's ok, I gave my opinion you gave yours, no need to continue.

See you on another thread, eventually.



Prolly.


Bertie

"Maxwell" #$$9#@%%%.^^^ wrote in news

"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
...
wrote in
news:13e6162f-07b7-424d-8b0d-0a34f68bda06
@l42g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:

On Jan 21, 12:09 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Flydive wrote innews:4975f799_7
@news.bluewin.ch:

wrote:

Low priority compared to flying the plane, deadstick, in a
congested urban environment.

Or would you rather he spend time looking for a button on the
panel?

Well it takes 3 seconds to flip the switch, you should know where
is located.

one pilot is flying the aircraft, the other one is assisting and
going through the checklist.

Yep, and the checklists can lead you into a workd of trouble. There
wasn'
t
time. In this case, a relight checklist was really all they should
have been interested in.

Bertie

I'll bet they had it open to 'foie gras' - goose liver ala Turbine.


hehe
Smells like hell when it goes down the core. They prolly didn;'t get
to
smell it since it sounds like the engines stopped producing air for
the
packs almost immediatly



Bertie


oh yeah,,prolly,, yeah


Well, yes maxie..

Do tel why you would think otherwise..

Bertie

on 1/21/09 2:40 PM Flydive said the following:
The problem was multiple bird strikes, with most probably catastrophic
engine failure, I don't think you are going to try a relight in that
situation.

Have you been following along at all? As early as last Saturday the NTSB
was reporting that that is exactly what they were doing, based on
interviews with the flight crew backed up by the cockpit recorder.

From Saturday's NYT:

“My aircraft,” he announced to his first officer, using the standard
phrasing and protocol drilled into airline crews.

“Your aircraft,” Mr. Skiles responded.

With little thrust, and with the plane’s airspeed falling sharply,
Captain Sullenberger lowered the nose to keep his plane from falling out
of the sky. And he set his co-pilot to work at moving through a
three-page checklist of procedures for restarting both the engines.

On Jan 21, 2:29*pm, "Maxwell" #$$9#@%%%.^^^ wrote:
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in .com...



Flydive wrote :

wrote:
On Jan 20, 3:51 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:28:27 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
Where on the checklist is the instruction to flip this switch?
The manual states:

At 2000 ft

CABIN PRESS MODE SEL.............................Check AUTO
ENG 1 & 2 BLEED, APU BLEED.......................OFF
P/B DITCHING.....................................ON
P/A............................................."TOU CHDOWN IN ONE
MINUTE" Aim for an impact with an 11 body angle and minimum ROD.

Poster

However if you're also working an inflight engine unstart which takes
precedence? *Clarification: two engine unstart w/inflight emergency..
Quite a bit different from a situation that begins at cruise altitude
or with only *one* emergency rather than a sequence of events. *As a
PAX I would rather know that the crew are concentrating on landing
the aircraft (ditching) as gently as possible.

That silly switch won't do a thing to save the buoyancy if the
fuselage is fractured by a rough ditching...a point one everyone
seems to miss.

I would hazard (grin) a guess that the final review will show them to
have maintained situational awareness with the concomitant priority
management.

Again, there are 2 pilots in the cockpit, only one is steering the
aircraft. If the captain was flying the aircraft, what was the copilot
doing in those 7-8 minutes if he was not going through the emergency
checklist? What the use of a perfect water landing if then the
aircraft quickly fill with water because the ditching checklist has
not been done?

There were dozens of things he would be doing. One, determining waht the
problem was.
Then, dealing with the immediate problem, an engine failure. Immediate
relight attempt. Probably the APU was fired up to assist in the relight..
as they would have been too slow for a windmill start.
Then a quick call to ATC and probalby a couple of nav selections for the
captain to look for a runway they could plunk it on.Then back to the
relight drill. We're taught to keep trying that to the bitter end, BTW.
They take a minute or so so he wouldn't have had time for more than one
or two, and that would have been after the APU had fired up, say at
abotu 1200'. *A couple of calls to the cabin would have been tossed in
their somewhere as well.
The act of picking up the book and finding the ditching checklist would
have taken a good 20-30 seconds...Time they simply did not have.
And this scenario is not done in the sim, so there would have been no
trigger for it. BTW, I'm beign generous with the actions they may or may
not have accomplished in the time they had. But all of them would come
ahead of doing a "nice to do " ditching checklist.

Bertie

save the bed time story, you're starting to rattle more than Dudley.

Speaking of rattle how's your syphilitic cough doing these days?

wrote in
:

On Jan 21, 2:29*pm, "Maxwell" #$$9#@%%%.^^^ wrote:
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in
messagenews:gl7pc2$93i
...



Flydive wrote
:

wrote:
On Jan 20, 3:51 pm, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:28:27 -0800 (PST),
wrote:
Where on the checklist is the instruction to flip this switch?
The manual states:

At 2000 ft

CABIN PRESS MODE SEL.............................Check AUTO
ENG 1 & 2 BLEED, APU BLEED.......................OFF
P/B DITCHING.....................................ON
P/A............................................."TOU CHDOWN IN
ONE MINUTE" Aim for an impact with an 11 body angle and minimum
ROD.

Poster

However if you're also working an inflight engine unstart which
takes precedence? *Clarification: two engine unstart w/inflight
emergency
.
Quite a bit different from a situation that begins at cruise
altitude or with only *one* emergency rather than a sequence of
events. *As
a
PAX I would rather know that the crew are concentrating on
landing the aircraft (ditching) as gently as possible.

That silly switch won't do a thing to save the buoyancy if the
fuselage is fractured by a rough ditching...a point one everyone
seems to miss.

I would hazard (grin) a guess that the final review will show
them to have maintained situational awareness with the
concomitant priority management.

Again, there are 2 pilots in the cockpit, only one is steering the
aircraft. If the captain was flying the aircraft, what was the
copilot doing in those 7-8 minutes if he was not going through the
emergency checklist? What the use of a perfect water landing if
then the aircraft quickly fill with water because the ditching
checklist has not been done?

There were dozens of things he would be doing. One, determining
waht th
e
problem was.
Then, dealing with the immediate problem, an engine failure.
Immediate relight attempt. Probably the APU was fired up to assist
in the relight
.
as they would have been too slow for a windmill start.
Then a quick call to ATC and probalby a couple of nav selections
for th
e
captain to look for a runway they could plunk it on.Then back to
the relight drill. We're taught to keep trying that to the bitter
end, BTW. They take a minute or so so he wouldn't have had time for
more than one or two, and that would have been after the APU had
fired up, say at abotu 1200'. *A couple of calls to the cabin would
have been tossed i
n
their somewhere as well.
The act of picking up the book and finding the ditching checklist
would have taken a good 20-30 seconds...Time they simply did not
have. And this scenario is not done in the sim, so there would have
been no trigger for it. BTW, I'm beign generous with the actions
they may or ma
y
not have accomplished in the time they had. But all of them would
come ahead of doing a "nice to do " ditching checklist.

Bertie

save the bed time story, you're starting to rattle more than Dudley.

Speaking of rattle how's your syphilitic cough doing these days?


Ewww.


Bertie

Rich Ahrens wrote in news:4977f644$0$92352
:

on 1/21/09 2:40 PM Flydive said the following:
The problem was multiple bird strikes, with most probably catastrophic
engine failure, I don't think you are going to try a relight in that
situation.

Have you been following along at all? As early as last Saturday the NTSB
was reporting that that is exactly what they were doing, based on
interviews with the flight crew backed up by the cockpit recorder.

From Saturday's NYT:

“My aircraft,” he announced to his first officer, using the standard
phrasing and protocol drilled into airline crews.

“Your aircraft,” Mr. Skiles responded.

With little thrust, and with the plane’s airspeed falling sharply,
Captain Sullenberger lowered the nose to keep his plane from falling out
of the sky. And he set his co-pilot to work at moving through a
three-page checklist of procedures for restarting both the engines.


Well, WTF else woul you do? You're face with a probable catastrophic
ditching or maybe getting enough thrust to nurse an airplane to a
runway....


Bertie