Class B busted...My problem or the controller's ?

Today I flew into KBFI (Boeing field) which is class D and has
extentions that underlie the Class B that require close attention to
altitudes and headings so as to stay clear. Today the winds were
favoring 31L (and 31R) and I came in from the west on the Vashon
approach--the most common approach from the west.

I was on a left downwind for 31L and the tower told me I was number
three following an Arrow on about a 2 mile straight in final (Valley
approach?). I acknowledged the traffic, and was waiting for it to come
up on my 9 o'clock before turning base so as to allow enough spacing.

The controller suddenly told me that I was too far south and said
either that I had busted into surface B or was about to. (I never did
clearly hear which).
Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile
or less--you end up in class B surface.

My questions:

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

Any thoughts would be appreciated...

Antonio

It's ultimately your responsibility for the safe and legal conduct of your
flight. You can technically refuse any instruction given by ATC on the
grounds that it would compromise the safety and legality of your flight. If
you knew the conditions of the pattern relative to Class B, it was your
responsibility to alert the controller to the fact they'd given you
instructions which would risk your busting the space.

Your fault, I'm afraid. Be adult about it and recognize your
responsibility.

Aviation is nearly unique in the world as being a professional community
which lives and breathes by the concept that the final and, really, only
authority in any situation is the pilot in command. I think it's a
brilliant concept that the rest of society is weaker for not embracing. The
blame and victim cultures that relieve everyone of their own personal adult
responsibility do not apply in aviation and, for the most part, pilots
willingly behave appropriately. I think it's one of the crowing glories of
the aviation community.

Shawn
"Antoñio" wrote in message
oups.com...
Today I flew into KBFI (Boeing field) which is class D and has
extentions that underlie the Class B that require close attention to
altitudes and headings so as to stay clear. Today the winds were
favoring 31L (and 31R) and I came in from the west on the Vashon
approach--the most common approach from the west.

I was on a left downwind for 31L and the tower told me I was number
three following an Arrow on about a 2 mile straight in final (Valley
approach?). I acknowledged the traffic, and was waiting for it to come
up on my 9 o'clock before turning base so as to allow enough spacing.

The controller suddenly told me that I was too far south and said
either that I had busted into surface B or was about to. (I never did
clearly hear which).
Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile
or less--you end up in class B surface.

My questions:

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

Any thoughts would be appreciated...

Antonio

ShawnD2112 wrote:

Aviation is nearly unique in the world as being a professional community
which lives and breathes by the concept that the final and, really, only
authority in any situation is the pilot in command. I think it's a
brilliant concept that the rest of society is weaker for not embracing. The
blame and victim cultures that relieve everyone of their own personal adult
responsibility do not apply in aviation and, for the most part, pilots
willingly behave appropriately. I think it's one of the crowing glories of
the aviation community.

Eloquently stated sir. Would that all of the other participants in this
great experiement called "Life on Earth" have the same philosophy.

"Antoñio" wrote in message
oups.com...
1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

I don't know how the FAA may have ruled on such situations in practice, but
the FARs seem ambiguous on the question. Of course, FAR 91.131a1 requires a
clearance before entering Class B. But FAR 91.123b requires compliance with
ATC instructions, except in an emergency. Clipping the edge of Class B
probably doesn't constitute an emergency. So the FARs seem contradictory in
a situation where obeying ATC requires you to bust Class B.

In such a situation, I would first make every effort to alert the tower that
I'm about to enter Class B. If the frequency is too congested to talk on the
radio, I'd hit Ident. If I still had no reply from the tower, I'd leave the
traffic pattern, stay clear of Class B, head outside the Class D (if not
outside already), and contact the tower as soon as possible.

I'd suggest that you submit an ASRS form, both for your legal protection,
and also to call attention to the problem.

--Gary

Gary Drescher wrote:

I don't know how the FAA may have ruled on such situations in practice, but
the FARs seem ambiguous on the question. Of course, FAR 91.131a1 requires a
clearance before entering Class B.

Didn't I have that clearance by default since I was operating under ATC
instructions?


In such a situation, I would first make every effort to alert the tower that
I'm about to enter Class B. If the frequency is too congested to talk on the
radio, I'd hit Ident.

Good technique to remember--the ident thing. I didn't think of that as
things happened so fast and the frequency was a solid wall of
congestion.

If I still had no reply from the tower, I'd leave the
traffic pattern, stay clear of Class B, head outside the Class D (if not
outside already), and contact the tower as soon as possible.

That might have been inadvisable in this particular case. There were
too many aircraft around and the airspace there is difficult to
negotiate. I think it might have caused more confusion to suddenly
depart the pattern and leave them wondering, "what is he going to do"?


I'd suggest that you submit an ASRS form, both for your legal protection,
and also to call attention to the problem.

Great idea, once again. Thanks Gary!

Antonio

On 28 May 2005 12:51:19 -0700, Antoñio wrote:

Gary Drescher wrote:

I don't know how the FAA may have ruled on such situations in practice, but
the FARs seem ambiguous on the question. Of course, FAR 91.131a1 requires a
clearance before entering Class B.

Didn't I have that clearance by default since I was operating under ATC
instructions?

Absolutely not.

Even with flight following, you must hear the magic words "Cleared into
Bravo".

Allen

"Antoñio" wrote in message
oups.com...
Gary Drescher wrote:

I don't know how the FAA may have ruled on such situations in practice,
but
the FARs seem ambiguous on the question. Of course, FAR 91.131a1 requires
a
clearance before entering Class B.

Didn't I have that clearance by default since I was operating under ATC
instructions?

Nope. A clearance is a very specific kind of permission. It's conveyed by
ATC using the word "cleared"; for example "cleared for takeoff", "cleared to
land", "cleared into class bravo". As far as I'm aware, a neighboring Class
D controller typically doesn't even have the authority to clear you into
Class B; in any case, he or she hasn't done so unless they said "cleared
into class bravo".

That might have been inadvisable in this particular case. There were
too many aircraft around and the airspace there is difficult to
negotiate. I think it might have caused more confusion to suddenly
depart the pattern and leave them wondering, "what is he going to do"?

Nonetheless, staying clear of the Class B (even in violation of an ATC
instruction) is apparently what the FAA wants you to do. Your confusion is
understandable, though, since the FARs contradict themselves on this point.

--Gary

Get a copy of the Letter of Agreement between the CBAS and the CDAS.
Read it to see who is responsible where between the two agencies and
what coordination they have to resolve conflicts.
Fill out a NASA Form 277.
Aviate
Navigate
Communicate
Sounds like you did them in that order.

"john smith" wrote in message
...

Get a copy of the Letter of Agreement between the CBAS and the CDAS.
Read it to see who is responsible where between the two agencies and what
coordination they have to resolve conflicts.


It doesn't matter who has jurisdiction if neither of them issued a clearance
into Class B airspace.

It doesn't matter who has jurisdiction if neither of them issued a
clearance into Class B airspace.

Being told by the Class D tower controller to follow the Arrow in to land
isn't being "cleared"?

That's just bureaucratic hogwash. If the Class D controller didn't have the
jurisdiction, he shouldn't have given the instruction.

Once again, Class D is shown to be the least controlled, least useful, most
dangerous airspace in the NAS.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"