Class B busted...My problem or the controller's ?

john smith wrote:
Get a copy of the Letter of Agreement between the CBAS and the CDAS.

I am familiar with what a LOA is but the other two acronymns "CBAS" and
"CDAS" I have never heard of. Can you explain them?


Aviate
Navigate
Communicate
Sounds like you did them in that order.

Thank you sir! I didn't realize that until you mentioned it.

Antonio

Gary Drescher wrote:

I don't know how the FAA may have ruled on such situations in practice, but
the FARs seem ambiguous on the question. Of course, FAR 91.131a1 requires a
clearance before entering Class B.

Didn't I have that clearance by default since I was operating under ATC
instructions?


In such a situation, I would first make every effort to alert the tower that
I'm about to enter Class B. If the frequency is too congested to talk on the
radio, I'd hit Ident.

Good technique to remember--the ident thing. I didn't think of that as
things happened so fast and the frequency was a solid wall of
congestion.

If I still had no reply from the tower, I'd leave the
traffic pattern, stay clear of Class B, head outside the Class D (if not
outside already), and contact the tower as soon as possible.

That might have been inadvisable in this particular case. There were
too many aircraft around and the airspace there is difficult to
negotiate. I think it might have caused more confusion to suddenly
depart the pattern and leave them wondering, "what is he going to do"?


I'd suggest that you submit an ASRS form, both for your legal protection,
and also to call attention to the problem.

Great idea, once again. Thanks Gary!

Antonio

On 28 May 2005 12:51:19 -0700, Antoñio wrote:

Gary Drescher wrote:

I don't know how the FAA may have ruled on such situations in practice, but
the FARs seem ambiguous on the question. Of course, FAR 91.131a1 requires a
clearance before entering Class B.

Didn't I have that clearance by default since I was operating under ATC
instructions?

Absolutely not.

Even with flight following, you must hear the magic words "Cleared into
Bravo".

Allen

1/ NASA form.

2/ Forget about it.

On 27 May 2005 23:42:07 -0700, "Antoñio"
wrote in
.com::

[...]

My questions:

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

While the ultimate responsibility for complying with FARs lies with
the PIC, it is my understanding that ATC is mandated by FAAO 7110.65*
to coordinate transit into/through the airspace of other facilities.

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

Without checking FAAO 7110.65, I would say yes.

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

I would call the tower manager, and discuss the issue to get his
views. Then I'd file a NASA form, and suggest how to change the
current procedures to make the issue less problematic.



* http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/INDEX.HTM

Greg Farris wrote:
Sounds like you knew the airspace well - so you knew extending the
downwind would bring you close to Class B, if not into it - That's an
advantage, compared with someone who is there for the first time, and
gives full trust to the controller. In your case, I would have said
something to the tower, like "Unable to continue downwind into Class
Bravo" asking for advice. That way, if he sends you into Class B, it's
clear(er) who did what.

Greg,

I do like that tactic and will try and use in in the future. Only one
"however" though....had I used it here I would have been well into
class B by the time the controller responded.


Hope you files a NASA form.

Definitely! And thanks for the reply.

Antonio

"Antoñio" wrote in message
oups.com...
Gary Drescher wrote:

I don't know how the FAA may have ruled on such situations in practice,
but
the FARs seem ambiguous on the question. Of course, FAR 91.131a1 requires
a
clearance before entering Class B.

Didn't I have that clearance by default since I was operating under ATC
instructions?

Nope. A clearance is a very specific kind of permission. It's conveyed by
ATC using the word "cleared"; for example "cleared for takeoff", "cleared to
land", "cleared into class bravo". As far as I'm aware, a neighboring Class
D controller typically doesn't even have the authority to clear you into
Class B; in any case, he or she hasn't done so unless they said "cleared
into class bravo".

That might have been inadvisable in this particular case. There were
too many aircraft around and the airspace there is difficult to
negotiate. I think it might have caused more confusion to suddenly
depart the pattern and leave them wondering, "what is he going to do"?

Nonetheless, staying clear of the Class B (even in violation of an ATC
instruction) is apparently what the FAA wants you to do. Your confusion is
understandable, though, since the FARs contradict themselves on this point.

--Gary

Peter Duniho wrote:
"Anto=F1io" wrote in message
oups.com...
[...]
Unless one turns a fairly close in base here--within about a half mile
or less--you end up in class B surface.

IMHO, that's incorrect. It's true that if you are flying a very wide
downwind, you can clip the area of the Class B airspace that extends to t=
he
surface. But provided you are flying the downwind where you're supposed
to -- over the Duwamish River -- you can fly straight out the valley as f=
ar
as you like without running into the Class B.

Not sure where the Duwamish is however, looking at the Seattle
terminal, it appears you'd have to be wingtip to wingtip on the
downwind with those on final if you are to avoid class B to the south.

I see a highway there that seems to just barely stay outside of B. I
will look for it next time.

1.Assuming I busted B; who is reponsible if the controller asks me to
follow an aircraft that is too far out on a straight in? I mean, I can
reduce speed, s-turn, and the like but I can't turn base until the
aircraft on final is a safe distance away, right?

Assuming you busted the Class B, you are responsible. The only thing that
the tower controller does is grant you use of the runway. They don't have
the authority to clear you into the Class B, and it's your responsibility=
to
say "unable" if you're given an instruction with which you can't comply (=
for
whatever reason, including regulatory).

So the fact that I was under ATC instruction does not give me the
clearance?
Can you quote me a reg that backs up your statement about "...whatever
reason, including regulatory" ?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?


The controllers is supposed to arrange things so that you don't wind up on
the same part of the runway at the same time as someone else. That's all.
They may try to assist with other issues, but ultimately those are all up=
to
you.

Well, that's one of my points. The controller left me with two options:

1=2E Go into class B
2=2E Turn my base early and cause a conflict

Keep in mind that I have not at all decided yet if I was wrong or right
in my actions. I am simply laying out the facts as I saw them unfold.

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

That said, let's assume that at Boeing Field, the Class B down to the
surface actually does extend all the way up to, but not including, the fi=
nal
approach course (it must not go over the final approach course, since then
no straight-in approach would be allowed, except by aircraft who already
have clearance through the Class B). Let's further assume that you need =
to
turn base before 1/2 mile past the "abeam the numbers" point.

Then your only available option is to not fly more than 1/2 mile past whe=
re
you are abeam the numbers. This may require S-turns, to give the
straight-in traffic more time. This may require making a 360 degree turn.
You could possibly turn upwind and try again, hoping that no more
straight-in traffic will show up. There are a variety of ways to solve t=
he
problem. But you would have to solve it...flying into the Class B airspa=
ce
without a clearance isn't an option.

Whoa! You think flying a 360 in the pattern, or turning upwind (which
means you'd have to cross over?) are better solutions than clipping the
corner of B?

Fortunately, this is all moot. It is entirely possible to extend one's
downwind at Boeing Field without flying into the Class B airspace,

Not very far !

the only thing you really need to do is make sure you are far enough east=
to
avoid the Class B (and far enough west to avoid conflict with straight-in
traffic). It's tighter than you usually find, but it's definitely doable.

It is "doable" only if you wish to be wingtip to wingtip with an MD80
or an L1011 in a C172.



For what it's worth, I have found that the easiest way to ensure you're in
the right spot is to fly directly over the Duwamish, and then aim for the
small hill just to the south of the runway. As long as your downwind tak=
es
you just west of that hill, you'll stay clear of both the Class B and the
final approach course. Alternatively, stay over or east of Route 99, and
that will accomplish the same thing. I prefer the topographic landmarks,
because they are easier to see than picking out which roadway is which, b=
ut
99 ought to be pretty prominent too.

Ahhh...good points Pete. Thanks!!

Antonio

Larry Dighera wrote:

While the ultimate responsibility for complying with FARs lies with
the PIC, it is my understanding that ATC is mandated by FAAO 7110.65*
to coordinate transit into/through the airspace of other facilities.

So would you say that if one were in the pattern that it would imply
the same responsibilities of ATC as if I were on, say, flight
following?

2.Is the controller supposed to arrange things so that I *can* turn
base and not be in conflict with other aircraft?

Without checking FAAO 7110.65, I would say yes.

Interesting...

3.How would you resolve the problem if it were happening to you ?

I would call the tower manager, and discuss the issue to get his
views. Then I'd file a NASA form, and suggest how to change the
current procedures to make the issue less problematic.

I meant: How would you resolve the problem if it were happening right
now?

Thanks Larry!

Antonio

"Antoñio" wrote in message
ups.com...

Larry Dighera wrote:

While the ultimate responsibility for complying with FARs lies with
the PIC, it is my understanding that ATC is mandated by FAAO 7110.65*
to coordinate transit into/through the airspace of other facilities.

So would you say that if one were in the pattern that it would imply
the same responsibilities of ATC as if I were on, say, flight
following?

I don't know whether that's the case. But even with flight following, you
can't enter Class B unless you're told "Cleared into Class Bravo". (If
you're flying IFR, then ATC doesn't have to mention Class B, but that's
because you're already on a clearance if you're flying IFR.) You *can*,
however, enter class C or D just by virtue of having flight following,
because no clearance is needed for that airspace; all you need is two-way
communication with ATC, which you've already got via your flight following.

--Gary