Busted IFR Checkride

Andrew Sarangan wrote:

Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?

My guess on this question is....

You don't bump into someone in the soup doing a proper entry.

The proper entry makes it so that ATC can anticipate / predict your next
move, knowing how the entry to the hold from your direction of travel.

Just like working in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport, you would
want people to enter the pattern appropriately to keep things neat and
orderly.

Don't want some one doing a right hand pattern at a left hand pattern
airport....

Allen

Well, Jon, it's clear to me that you must have done a LOT of things right
for the ride, since the holding pattern was the only thing that nipped you.
I know ya feel disappointed and there's not much to say, other than to point
out that you took what most of the instructors I've spoken to, is one of the
hardest rides. I swear I'll never understand why it's only an 'add-on'
rating to the Private (so-to-speak) when it seems that it should be a
complete 'ticket' in itself.

Adding the final touches to your holding pattern technique, should be a lot
easier, now that you can devote your time with your instructor just working
on holding patterns (i.e., since you passed all the rest, there will be no
need to practice them again for the follow-up checkride).

If I don't pass my Instrument checkride the first time, I hope I can do as
well as you did - that is, do well on everything except one small item.

Really, man,,, in the scheme of things you did REALLY good and you'll be on
'easy street' on your next ride 'cause you'll only have one thing to do and
you'll do it well!

--
--
=-----
Good Flights!

Cecil
PP-ASEL
Student-IASEL

Check out my personal flying adventures from my first flight to the
checkride AND the continuing adventures beyond!
Complete with pictures and text at: www.bayareapilot.com

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things."
- Antoine de Saint-Exupery -

"We who fly, do so for the love of flying. We are alive in the air with
this miracle that lies in our hands and beneath our feet"
- Cecil Day Lewis -
"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
Took my IFR checkride today and busted... I screwed up the holding
pattern big time and that was that... At first I was so damn fustrated
that I told the DE that I just want to head back to the airport... Then
I thought to myself "what are you going to do there pout?" :-) I then
decided to go ahead with the rest of the ride and get it out of the way.
I did OK... not great but passable... This DE made it pretty easy on
me... He was telling me about his IFR checkride and him busting on his
first attempt too... He busted on the holding pattern too so I didn't
feel that bad.. He now has 14,000+ hours and doesn't worry about his
busted IFR checkride so I figured why should I... Now I just need to go
back up with my instructor once, do the freakn' holding pattern... Go
back up with the DE... do the freakn' holding pattern and be done...
More to follow...

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA Argggg...

Jon Kraus wrote:

Basically just nerves mostly... A couple of things contributed to
that. One was that I agreed to be this DE's first IFR checkride...
that being so, we had the FAA examiner with us examining him... My
oral was 3 hours long and this about wiped me out...

Holy cows Jon, your luck must be like mine except I had a DE that had
zillions of examinations behind him and he was accompanied by an FAA
examiner for my VFR license. I am not sure if you have been following
my progress, but you, at least fared out better, as I busted the oral
part! I didn't even get to fly.

It was brutal, as just like you, I spent a good 2 1/2 hours just on the
oral. I was told that because the FAA examiner was in with us, he had
to be STRICTLY by the book. The retake was much more relaxed (without
the FAA examiner) and of course covered things that I missed. Simple
things in retrospect, but I knew my nerves took over on me. DE said
next time I come out, I am looking to pass you. He felt bad, I could
really tell.

This morning we were to
do the flight portion of the test... I had everything set up for my
clearance and was told after take off to intercept V305 and head
north. I was then to to hold at the WELDO intersection... I was
thinking cool I have done exact thing several times... What I didn't
realize is that V305 is real close to V96 and I had tuned in the wrong
redial on the OBS... When things didn't start centering when they
should have I began to double check and caught my error.. By the time
I determined what was wrong I had blown through the intersection and
that threw me for a loop... I got confused and that is when the DE
said that it was an unsat maneuver... Really no excuses...

Like you said, it's nerves, and call it the human factor. Knowing you
had done it before, you should pass with flying colors the next time
Weldo intersection comes in your future. The whole process is nerve
wracking!

and will take responsibility... Look for my post next Wednesday that I
passed the recheck :-)

Look forward to this!

For me, I am just beginning the cross country part of my training.
Saturday will be my first CC (MBO to MEI). My choices of approaches are
very limited, as I don't have an ADF and only have a VFR only GPS in my
plane. So for my 3 approaches on my examination, would be VOR, ILS and
LOC approaches. I have a DME, so that can be used in the mix (DME Arc).
My instructor has been making me do back course approaches into JAN,
which I have to keep saying, pull the needle in, pull the needle in.
Really sensitive approach I have been told and experienced. So far, I
have 72 approaches into MBO, JAN and HKS. I think my instructor is
looking for a "change" :-))

As far as holds, he has had me try three different times. One time, it
was brutal as it was 10 seconds out bound, and 1 minute 30 seconds
inbound due to the winds aloft. We got it on the third go round.

Again, good luck on your retake. Sounds like you've been there, so it's
a matter of doing it, and not needing "luck"

Thanks for replying!

Allen

Bummer Jon, sorry to hear that...but it sounds like you did the right thing
continuing the ride. Yep, in the long run, it's not going to matter. Hope
you nail the holds next time.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

Thanks for the kind words Cecil... I'm really over the being bummed out
part.... Hell that didn't even last 24 hours... I am anticipating
passing the retest on Wednesday and will let everyone know.. Thanks
again...

Cecil Chapman wrote:

Well, Jon, it's clear to me that you must have done a LOT of things right
for the ride, since the holding pattern was the only thing that nipped you.
I know ya feel disappointed and there's not much to say, other than to point
out that you took what most of the instructors I've spoken to, is one of the
hardest rides. I swear I'll never understand why it's only an 'add-on'
rating to the Private (so-to-speak) when it seems that it should be a
complete 'ticket' in itself.

Adding the final touches to your holding pattern technique, should be a lot
easier, now that you can devote your time with your instructor just working
on holding patterns (i.e., since you passed all the rest, there will be no
need to practice them again for the follow-up checkride).

If I don't pass my Instrument checkride the first time, I hope I can do as
well as you did - that is, do well on everything except one small item.

Really, man,,, in the scheme of things you did REALLY good and you'll be on
'easy street' on your next ride 'cause you'll only have one thing to do and
you'll do it well!

Some good guesses, but I think I can suggest some better ones...

A Lieberman wrote:
Andrew Sarangan wrote:


Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?


My guess on this question is....

You don't bump into someone in the soup doing a proper entry.

ATC is not going to assign holds to two aircraft at the same holding point at
the same altitude. So unless "improper entry" includes an altitude bust, I don't
think this is a problem.


The proper entry makes it so that ATC can anticipate / predict your next
move, knowing how the entry to the hold from your direction of travel.

I don't think ATC can see well enough (or cares) what kind of entry you perform.


Just like working in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport, you would
want people to enter the pattern appropriately to keep things neat and
orderly.

Don't want some one doing a right hand pattern at a left hand pattern
airport....

I think a better answer is that doing the prescribed entry gives you the most
margin for error while keeping you inside protected airspace. If you're buzzing
around in a C172, your turn radius is tight and there's plenty of protected
airspace, and you can screw up the entry big-time and still stay protected. If
you're flying at the limits of holding airspeed, and the wind is blowing, and
you're a little sloppy with your navigation, and you do the wrong entry, it may
put you outside protected airspace.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly

Dave Butler wrote:

Some good guesses, but I think I can suggest some better ones...


ATC is not going to assign holds to two aircraft at the same holding point at
the same altitude. So unless "improper entry" includes an altitude bust, I don't
think this is a problem.

I'll give you something better than guesses. Controllers working traffic don't
care, perhaps, but their managers do. There are holding patterns in the New York
and Washington Center areas that are so close to each other, that speed is limited
to 200 knots above 6,000 to keep the patterns from overlapping. Improper entires,
at least in jets, could cause an aircraft to go into the other pattern's airspace.
This was demonstrated in holding pattern criteria meetings. Radar doesn't help,
because radar service is usually terminated in these busy patterns due to multiple
merging targets.




The proper entry makes it so that ATC can anticipate / predict your next
move, knowing how the entry to the hold from your direction of travel.

I don't think ATC can see well enough (or cares) what kind of entry you perform.


That's right, they can't see well enough to help out in conjested airspace.



Just like working in the pattern at an uncontrolled airport, you would
want people to enter the pattern appropriately to keep things neat and
orderly.

Don't want some one doing a right hand pattern at a left hand pattern
airport....

I think a better answer is that doing the prescribed entry gives you the most
margin for error while keeping you inside protected airspace. If you're buzzing
around in a C172, your turn radius is tight and there's plenty of protected
airspace, and you can screw up the entry big-time and still stay protected. If
you're flying at the limits of holding airspeed, and the wind is blowing, and
you're a little sloppy with your navigation, and you do the wrong entry, it may
put you outside protected airspace.

In a Cessna 172, no doubt about it. But, the instrument rating is not a rating ride
limited to 172's.

"A Lieberman" wrote in message =
...
| Jon Kraus wrote:
|=20
snip
| Knowing you had done it before, you should pass with flying colors the =
next time
| Weldo intersection comes in your future.
snip

I don't mean to throw icy, bone-chilling cold water on Jon's hopes (if I =
ever get back into flying, I'll be working on my own IR, after all!), =
but this assumes the DE will use WELDO for the re-test. Is the DE =
obligated to use a different intersection? Or is that strictly the DE's =
discretion?

I'm sure you know, Jon, that you shouldn't spend 40 hours between now & =
Wed flying fixes at WELDO, lol! This is more just a curiosity question.

TIA!

Mike T.
--=20
When I had Money, I could fly.
Then I got Married...then we got a Mortgage...then we had a Munchkin.
She has three Ms, I have none. I'm...
2Poor2Fly4Real

(remove "nospam" from address for direct replies)

Jon,

Busted rides occasionally happen, and from the numerous posts, it looks like
you're coping just fine. But if you need further cheering up, here's how my
instructor busted HIS ride:

He started off with the easy stuff, tracking to a VOR. However, he missed
the flag switching from TO to FROM, and just kept on tracking. Apparently,
it was a fairly calm day so that little course correction was necessary,
otherwise trying to keep the needle aligned may have clued him in
(eventually). Anyway, the DE let this go on for about 10 minutes or so
before suggesting they do a 180 rather than circle the globe on course. The
rest of the ride went off without a hitch.

blue skies,
mark


"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
Took my IFR checkride today and busted... I screwed up the holding
pattern big time and that was that... At first I was so damn fustrated
that I told the DE that I just want to head back to the airport... Then
I thought to myself "what are you going to do there pout?" :-) I then
decided to go ahead with the rest of the ride and get it out of the way.
I did OK... not great but passable... This DE made it pretty easy on
me... He was telling me about his IFR checkride and him busting on his
first attempt too... He busted on the holding pattern too so I didn't
feel that bad.. He now has 14,000+ hours and doesn't worry about his
busted IFR checkride so I figured why should I... Now I just need to go
back up with my instructor once, do the freakn' holding pattern... Go
back up with the DE... do the freakn' holding pattern and be done...
More to follow...

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL
Student-IA Argggg...

Andrew Sarangan wrote
I never understood why holding patterns are so damn important. I have
received a holding clearance only once in my life. Why are they required
for the recency experience and the checkride? Also, why are the entry
procedures so important? Is there any example where an incorrect entry
procedure would have caused an accident?

Interestingly enough, this topic constituted the bulk of my CFII oral.

First off, I agree with you - holds are pretty rare in the real world,
and in the stuff we fly there is, for all practical purposes, no way
to leave the protected airspace. Thus the official reason for
learning holds is bogus.

However, there are two reasons why they are important - one
operational, one training.

First the operational reason - holds are sometimes used for course
reversal on approaches in lieu of procedure turns. In such a case,
you are expected to do only the hold entry. Further, for your own
good you need to be well established on the inbound course before
crossing the fix. Finally, when this is done, the reason the hold was
chosen over the PT was to keep you out of airspace or obstructions.
So the bottom line is holding is not important until it it. Still,
there are other items that fall into that category (for example IFR
departures from VFR fields) that are not covered at all.

The training reason is the more compelling - good holding requires
good situational awareness. In fact, the hold is the best test of
situational awareness on the checkride. If you don't know where you
are, where you are going, and what the wind is doing you will not make
a good entry.

I doubt there have been too many cases where a bad hold entry killed
someone (it would have to take some very special circumstances) but
poor situational awareness is probably the number one killer in IFR
operations.

Michael