Low cost ADS-B Options

On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 11:10:22 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Hi Renny

Great question. Here is a long-winded way of saying I don't know the answer :-) But maybe it recaps some useful stuff.

I don't see how it could be "illegal" there is no law or regulation I'm aware of saying you can't do this in an experimental aircraft. What exact ground services you would receive, wether its a good idea or would upset folks, etc. I don't know.

For completeness let me just mention the relevant 1090ES part of the ADS-B carriage regulations here.

14 CFR 91.225 requires 1090ES Out TSO-C166b Class A1, A1S, A2, A3, B1S, or B1 devices, or "meets performance of" for experimental aircraft. And yes the "Class" spec includes power output but also other stuff, For example Class A devices are ADS-B Out and In (think transport category aircraft), Class B devices are ADS-B Out only.

The Trig TT-22 is TSO-C166b Class B1S device
The Trig TT-21 is TSO-C166b Class B0 device -- so does not meet the requirement.

Requiring higher-power 1090ES Out devices allowed the FAA to save money by requiring fewer ADS-B ground stations. My understanding was Trig was surprised by this FAA requirement that came into effect after they were already selling the TT-21 in the USA.

And none of this changes any usefulness of the TT-21 as a plain transponder before or after 2020. If you are flying with a Trig TT-21 transponder in a glider today, you already have a fantastic device for providing traffic information about your glider to ATC SSR and TCAS and PCAS systems and via TIS-B to suitably equipped aircraft. Obviously some of those things only work when within appropriate service coverage... but TCAS is great technology or last resort in part because it works *everywhere*. And none of that goes away in 2020.... but some ATC SSR is expected to be decommissioned in the longer term.

----

So you can today use a TT-22 but not a TT-21 to meet the FAA 2020 ADS-B Out carriage requirements, but as you point out gliders are currently exempt from most of those requirements.

For an experimental aircraft, you can in principle connect up any GPS source to an ADS-B out system as long as you correctly configure the GPS source to reflect it's quality parameters like SIL. Transmitting lies about the GPS data or it's quality is just stupid and is really going to **** off the FAA and may earn you a visit from some feds. Lets see if anything is left of NavWorx after the FAA finishes chewing on them for their apparent decision to transmitting false GPS SIL etc. data. This is where you absolutely should not be guessing or messing around. Make sure you work with manufacturers instructions for doing that, and if in doubt check with them (start with the transponder manufacture).

I can't recall that the ADS-B device class being transmitted in any ADS-B extended squitter messages. There may be some ways to reverse engineer this is you are also interrogating the underlying mode S transponder. I'd have to dig though too much stuff now to check. I have no idea if the FAA ADS-B ground infrastructure would transmit TIS-B or ADS-R for client aircraft if it knew that a 1090ES device was "under-spec" at Class B0. I suspect they might not care/look at that, they certainly do care/look at the GPS source spec data (like SIL) and that is clearly transmitted. This would be interesting to ask FAA folks about...

And just playing with this is certainly not what I'd do. I'd be talking to Trig and local FSDO folks to make sure they are all OK with this any "experimenting". A TT-21 with a TN71 is really an early version of a TABS device, so asking the right questions might help find Trig and FAA folks interested in working with anybody who wanted to play with this.

It's certainly my hope that *if* gliders lose their ADS-B Out exemption that TABS regulations are introduced that would hopefully help provide a lower-cost/easier to install etc. method of compliance. Of course I'd also like to see TABS regulations introduced even if the ADS-B Out exemption was not removed.

The folks at Trig have been very helpful every contact I've had with them, and they are a great place to start asking with these questions if you own a TT-21 today.


Darryl


On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:54:13 PM UTC-8, Renny wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:41:22 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:11:44 PM UTC-8, glidergreg wrote:
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600..

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

You may me correct on this, the TN72 looks like it will require an antenna and a brief search of TSO-C190 antenna much like the one used on the TN70 are upwards of $300.00 and more. Ironically I don't think the TN72 is TSOed but the antenna may well need to be.

The TN72 at it exists today cannot be installed in any certified aircraft including certified gliders. Since it's an experimental market focused product I'm not sure why you are talking about TSO antennas. Having an actual TSO GPS antenna is not a requirement there.

A TN72 can be installed as an ADS-B Out GPS source in an experimental glider, and since it's a "meets performance of TSO-C145c" device it absolutely will trigger TIS-B and ADS-R ground services. But few glider will likely be equipped to receive that data (a PowerFLARM receives 1090ES direct only, it does not receive ADS-R, TIS-B or FIS-B). Trig are good guys they damn well would not sell a product in the experimental market that did not do that correctly (Uh unlike some other folks).

That the TN72 is TSO-C199 certified is irrelevant to any use today since there are no TSO-C199 related use or installation regulations.

What will happen moving forward is intersting. And may change here as TSO-C199 related regulations appear and if (unrelated) ADS-B installation STCs are developed by folks.

For people with a Trig TT-22 in an experimental glider who want to play with ADS-B out the TN72 is good news. It would be great to hear about them being installed and used.

As Andez says all this has been well discussed before, including in posts earlier n this very thread.

Darryl - I much appreciate all of the info you provide on this issue. Quick question....In a glider with an experimental airworthiness certificate, it seems one can now install a Trig TN72, but would it actually be "illegal" (if that is the proper term) to link it up to a Trig TT-21? I know that the TT-22 is a Class I transponder and it has the 250 watt power requirement and meets the ADS-B transponder requirements, but in an experimental glider is there any way the TT-21 could still legally be used (especially since gliders are actually exempt from the ADS-B requirement in 2020)?

Thanks for your excellent help - Renny

Darryl, have you seen any new developments from Trig about their TABS solution? They have been pretty quiet about it recently.

Also looks like uAvionix got one of their devices approved in the UK as an EC device. Is that similar to the TABS TSO here in the US?

Peter

There are no TABS/TSO-C199 installation or use regulations in the USA so TSO-C199 products being introduced into the market are not that intersting. A Trig TT-21 or TT-22 will meet TABS Class A device requirements since they are effectively meet the TSO requirement in being full Mode-S transponders. But again we need to see actual regulations to see how stuff will work. The Trig TN72 *is* a TSO-C199 Class B (e.g. GPS) device. But again that TSO is not the same as having a TSO-C166b (1090ES Out) and give you no 2020 Mandate compliance in any aircraft. Neither can you actually install in in any certified aircraft. If you have an experimental glider and want to play with ADS-B Out in the USA then the Trig TT-22 and TN72 looks like the way to go right now.

No the UK EC program is not the same as TABS. TABS Class A devices (the Class B part is just the GPS) both feature a reduced functionality Mode-S transponder and 1090ES Out. And are compatible with both TCAS and the FAA ADS-B system, including being enough to get client services for TIS-B and ADS-R (which yes PowerFLARM can't receive anyhow). The uAvionix Skylym Echo ATT-20B is 1090ES Out and In only with no basic Mode-S transponder support. So not TCAS RA compatibility and unclear if its enough to trigger FAA based ADS-B ground services. Lack of TCAS compatibility is a dangerous shortcoming when worrying about flight near busy airspace. It's also not possible to add that uAvionix device to an aircraft with a separate transponder (they could interfere with each other). I expect/hope the FAA focus in on TABS regulations in the USA.

uAvionix have a problem with how they dribble bull**** like: "Worlds first approved ADS-B Out Solution" ah right, if you ignore all the other ADS-B Out systems from all those other manufacturers. It's hard to take them seriously when they do stuff like that, and they have a history of such silliness..



On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 9:54:24 AM UTC-8, vontresc wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 11:10:22 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Hi Renny

Great question. Here is a long-winded way of saying I don't know the answer :-) But maybe it recaps some useful stuff.

I don't see how it could be "illegal" there is no law or regulation I'm aware of saying you can't do this in an experimental aircraft. What exact ground services you would receive, wether its a good idea or would upset folks, etc. I don't know.

For completeness let me just mention the relevant 1090ES part of the ADS-B carriage regulations here.

14 CFR 91.225 requires 1090ES Out TSO-C166b Class A1, A1S, A2, A3, B1S, or B1 devices, or "meets performance of" for experimental aircraft. And yes the "Class" spec includes power output but also other stuff, For example Class A devices are ADS-B Out and In (think transport category aircraft), Class B devices are ADS-B Out only.

The Trig TT-22 is TSO-C166b Class B1S device
The Trig TT-21 is TSO-C166b Class B0 device -- so does not meet the requirement.

Requiring higher-power 1090ES Out devices allowed the FAA to save money by requiring fewer ADS-B ground stations. My understanding was Trig was surprised by this FAA requirement that came into effect after they were already selling the TT-21 in the USA.

And none of this changes any usefulness of the TT-21 as a plain transponder before or after 2020. If you are flying with a Trig TT-21 transponder in a glider today, you already have a fantastic device for providing traffic information about your glider to ATC SSR and TCAS and PCAS systems and via TIS-B to suitably equipped aircraft. Obviously some of those things only work when within appropriate service coverage... but TCAS is great technology or last resort in part because it works *everywhere*. And none of that goes away in 2020.... but some ATC SSR is expected to be decommissioned in the longer term.

----

So you can today use a TT-22 but not a TT-21 to meet the FAA 2020 ADS-B Out carriage requirements, but as you point out gliders are currently exempt from most of those requirements.

For an experimental aircraft, you can in principle connect up any GPS source to an ADS-B out system as long as you correctly configure the GPS source to reflect it's quality parameters like SIL. Transmitting lies about the GPS data or it's quality is just stupid and is really going to **** off the FAA and may earn you a visit from some feds. Lets see if anything is left of NavWorx after the FAA finishes chewing on them for their apparent decision to transmitting false GPS SIL etc. data. This is where you absolutely should not be guessing or messing around. Make sure you work with manufacturers instructions for doing that, and if in doubt check with them (start with the transponder manufacture).

I can't recall that the ADS-B device class being transmitted in any ADS-B extended squitter messages. There may be some ways to reverse engineer this is you are also interrogating the underlying mode S transponder. I'd have to dig though too much stuff now to check. I have no idea if the FAA ADS-B ground infrastructure would transmit TIS-B or ADS-R for client aircraft if it knew that a 1090ES device was "under-spec" at Class B0. I suspect they might not care/look at that, they certainly do care/look at the GPS source spec data (like SIL) and that is clearly transmitted. This would be interesting to ask FAA folks about...

And just playing with this is certainly not what I'd do. I'd be talking to Trig and local FSDO folks to make sure they are all OK with this any "experimenting". A TT-21 with a TN71 is really an early version of a TABS device, so asking the right questions might help find Trig and FAA folks interested in working with anybody who wanted to play with this.

It's certainly my hope that *if* gliders lose their ADS-B Out exemption that TABS regulations are introduced that would hopefully help provide a lower-cost/easier to install etc. method of compliance. Of course I'd also like to see TABS regulations introduced even if the ADS-B Out exemption was not removed.

The folks at Trig have been very helpful every contact I've had with them, and they are a great place to start asking with these questions if you own a TT-21 today.


Darryl


On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:54:13 PM UTC-8, Renny wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:41:22 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:11:44 PM UTC-8, glidergreg wrote:
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 12:50:59 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
There are no TABS/TSO-C199 installation or use regulations in the USA so TSO-C199 products being introduced into the market are not that intersting. A Trig TT-21 or TT-22 will meet TABS Class A device requirements since they are effectively meet the TSO requirement in being full Mode-S transponders. But again we need to see actual regulations to see how stuff will work. The Trig TN72 *is* a TSO-C199 Class B (e.g. GPS) device. But again that TSO is not the same as having a TSO-C166b (1090ES Out) and give you no 2020 Mandate compliance in any aircraft. Neither can you actually install in in any certified aircraft. If you have an experimental glider and want to play with ADS-B Out in the USA then the Trig TT-22 and TN72 looks like the way to go right now.

No the UK EC program is not the same as TABS. TABS Class A devices (the Class B part is just the GPS) both feature a reduced functionality Mode-S transponder and 1090ES Out. And are compatible with both TCAS and the FAA ADS-B system, including being enough to get client services for TIS-B and ADS-R (which yes PowerFLARM can't receive anyhow). The uAvionix Skylym Echo ATT-20B is 1090ES Out and In only with no basic Mode-S transponder support. So not TCAS RA compatibility and unclear if its enough to trigger FAA based ADS-B ground services. Lack of TCAS compatibility is a dangerous shortcoming when worrying about flight near busy airspace. It's also not possible to add that uAvionix device to an aircraft with a separate transponder (they could interfere with each other). I expect/hope the FAA focus in on TABS regulations in the USA.

uAvionix have a problem with how they dribble bull**** like: "Worlds first approved ADS-B Out Solution" ah right, if you ignore all the other ADS-B Out systems from all those other manufacturers. It's hard to take them seriously when they do stuff like that, and they have a history of such silliness.



On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 9:54:24 AM UTC-8, vontresc wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 11:10:22 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Hi Renny

Great question. Here is a long-winded way of saying I don't know the answer :-) But maybe it recaps some useful stuff.

I don't see how it could be "illegal" there is no law or regulation I'm aware of saying you can't do this in an experimental aircraft. What exact ground services you would receive, wether its a good idea or would upset folks, etc. I don't know.

For completeness let me just mention the relevant 1090ES part of the ADS-B carriage regulations here.

14 CFR 91.225 requires 1090ES Out TSO-C166b Class A1, A1S, A2, A3, B1S, or B1 devices, or "meets performance of" for experimental aircraft. And yes the "Class" spec includes power output but also other stuff, For example Class A devices are ADS-B Out and In (think transport category aircraft), Class B devices are ADS-B Out only.

The Trig TT-22 is TSO-C166b Class B1S device
The Trig TT-21 is TSO-C166b Class B0 device -- so does not meet the requirement.

Requiring higher-power 1090ES Out devices allowed the FAA to save money by requiring fewer ADS-B ground stations. My understanding was Trig was surprised by this FAA requirement that came into effect after they were already selling the TT-21 in the USA.

And none of this changes any usefulness of the TT-21 as a plain transponder before or after 2020. If you are flying with a Trig TT-21 transponder in a glider today, you already have a fantastic device for providing traffic information about your glider to ATC SSR and TCAS and PCAS systems and via TIS-B to suitably equipped aircraft. Obviously some of those things only work when within appropriate service coverage... but TCAS is great technology or last resort in part because it works *everywhere*. And none of that goes away in 2020.... but some ATC SSR is expected to be decommissioned in the longer term.

----

So you can today use a TT-22 but not a TT-21 to meet the FAA 2020 ADS-B Out carriage requirements, but as you point out gliders are currently exempt from most of those requirements.

For an experimental aircraft, you can in principle connect up any GPS source to an ADS-B out system as long as you correctly configure the GPS source to reflect it's quality parameters like SIL. Transmitting lies about the GPS data or it's quality is just stupid and is really going to **** off the FAA and may earn you a visit from some feds. Lets see if anything is left of NavWorx after the FAA finishes chewing on them for their apparent decision to transmitting false GPS SIL etc. data. This is where you absolutely should not be guessing or messing around. Make sure you work with manufacturers instructions for doing that, and if in doubt check with them (start with the transponder manufacture).

I can't recall that the ADS-B device class being transmitted in any ADS-B extended squitter messages. There may be some ways to reverse engineer this is you are also interrogating the underlying mode S transponder. I'd have to dig though too much stuff now to check. I have no idea if the FAA ADS-B ground infrastructure would transmit TIS-B or ADS-R for client aircraft if it knew that a 1090ES device was "under-spec" at Class B0. I suspect they might not care/look at that, they certainly do care/look at the GPS source spec data (like SIL) and that is clearly transmitted. This would be interesting to ask FAA folks about...

And just playing with this is certainly not what I'd do. I'd be talking to Trig and local FSDO folks to make sure they are all OK with this any "experimenting". A TT-21 with a TN71 is really an early version of a TABS device, so asking the right questions might help find Trig and FAA folks interested in working with anybody who wanted to play with this.

It's certainly my hope that *if* gliders lose their ADS-B Out exemption that TABS regulations are introduced that would hopefully help provide a lower-cost/easier to install etc. method of compliance. Of course I'd also like to see TABS regulations introduced even if the ADS-B Out exemption was not removed.

The folks at Trig have been very helpful every contact I've had with them, and they are a great place to start asking with these questions if you own a TT-21 today.


Darryl


On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:54:13 PM UTC-8, Renny wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:41:22 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:11:44 PM UTC-8, glidergreg wrote:
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

You may me correct on this, the TN72 looks like it will require an antenna and a brief search of TSO-C190 antenna much like the one used on the TN70 are upwards of $300.00 and more. Ironically I don't think the TN72 is TSOed but the antenna may well need to be.

The TN72 at it exists today cannot be installed in any certified aircraft including certified gliders. Since it's an experimental market focused product I'm not sure why you are talking about TSO antennas. Having an actual TSO GPS antenna is not a requirement there.

A TN72 can be installed as an ADS-B Out GPS source in an experimental glider, and since it's a "meets performance of TSO-C145c" device it absolutely will trigger TIS-B and ADS-R ground services. But few glider will likely be equipped to receive that data (a PowerFLARM receives 1090ES direct only, it does not receive ADS-R, TIS-B or FIS-B). Trig are good guys they damn well would not sell a product in the experimental market that did not do that correctly (Uh unlike some other folks).

That the TN72 is TSO-C199 certified is irrelevant to any use today since there are no TSO-C199 related use or installation regulations.

What will happen moving forward is intersting. And may change here as TSO-C199 related regulations appear and if (unrelated) ADS-B installation STCs are developed by folks.

For people with a Trig TT-22 in an experimental glider who want to play with ADS-B out the TN72 is good news. It would be great to hear about them being installed and used.

As Andez says all this has been well discussed before, including in posts earlier n this very thread.

Darryl - I much appreciate all of the info you provide on this issue. Quick question....In a glider with an experimental airworthiness certificate, it seems one can now install a Trig TN72, but would it actually be "illegal" (if that is the proper term) to link it up to a Trig TT-21? I know that the TT-22 is a Class I transponder and it has the 250 watt power requirement and meets the ADS-B transponder requirements, but in an experimental glider is there any way the TT-21 could still legally be used (especially since gliders are actually exempt from the ADS-B requirement in 2020)?

Thanks for your excellent help - Renny

Darryl, have you seen any new developments from Trig about their TABS solution? They have been pretty quiet about it recently.

Also looks like uAvionix got one of their devices approved in the UK as an EC device. Is that similar to the TABS TSO here in the US?

Peter

Thanks for the updates. I really wish the FAA could actually summarize their own BS like you do for us. I have consistently gotten better info out of you than the FAA itself.

So back to TABS/TSO-C199. Why even introduce this stuff if there is nothing in the regs for installation/use? When it first came out, it got to thinking this may be a decent "solution" for gliders and other non electrical system users of the NAS. This ADS-B thing has really gotten idiotic.

Peter

Introducing TABS/TSO-C199 approved devices to the market now does make sense. I did not meant to sound like it did not. It's possible for manufactures to add that approval, at least the Class B GPS part, to other devices at relatively low cost Trig and others worked with the FAA on the development of TSO-C199 so it's natural to see them approve devices agains that standard as soon as they can. And makes all perfect sense, hopefully building for use under future regulations. In the case of the TN72 it also "meets perforamnce of TSO-C145c" so can be used in experimental aircraft today to meet the 2020 Compliance requirements--but because it is not actually TSO-C145c approved it can't be installed in certified aircraft. The TN72 being "TSO" but not "that-TSO" has unfortunately confused people.

This whole space may change if folks are able to pull off AML STCs that use non-TSO GPS sources... that potential and process around that is something I really don't currently understand.

As much as I have also been frustrated with the FAA and ADS-B, I think the folks there working on TSO-C199/TABS, and the vendors involved with that have tried to do/are working towards the right thing.

I would like to see TABS installation and carriage regulations at least for gliders and similar aircraft. OTOH, I would not be surprised if that is accompanied by loss of transponder or the 2020 ADS-B Out exemptions and TABS used as an alternate means of compliance.

The recent fatal mid-air collision in the UK is a terribly sad reminder of dangers here.

Darryl


On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 11:27:50 AM UTC-8, vontresc wrote:
On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 12:50:59 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
There are no TABS/TSO-C199 installation or use regulations in the USA so TSO-C199 products being introduced into the market are not that intersting. A Trig TT-21 or TT-22 will meet TABS Class A device requirements since they are effectively meet the TSO requirement in being full Mode-S transponders. But again we need to see actual regulations to see how stuff will work.. The Trig TN72 *is* a TSO-C199 Class B (e.g. GPS) device. But again that TSO is not the same as having a TSO-C166b (1090ES Out) and give you no 2020 Mandate compliance in any aircraft. Neither can you actually install in in any certified aircraft. If you have an experimental glider and want to play with ADS-B Out in the USA then the Trig TT-22 and TN72 looks like the way to go right now.

No the UK EC program is not the same as TABS. TABS Class A devices (the Class B part is just the GPS) both feature a reduced functionality Mode-S transponder and 1090ES Out. And are compatible with both TCAS and the FAA ADS-B system, including being enough to get client services for TIS-B and ADS-R (which yes PowerFLARM can't receive anyhow). The uAvionix Skylym Echo ATT-20B is 1090ES Out and In only with no basic Mode-S transponder support. So not TCAS RA compatibility and unclear if its enough to trigger FAA based ADS-B ground services. Lack of TCAS compatibility is a dangerous shortcoming when worrying about flight near busy airspace. It's also not possible to add that uAvionix device to an aircraft with a separate transponder (they could interfere with each other). I expect/hope the FAA focus in on TABS regulations in the USA.

uAvionix have a problem with how they dribble bull**** like: "Worlds first approved ADS-B Out Solution" ah right, if you ignore all the other ADS-B Out systems from all those other manufacturers. It's hard to take them seriously when they do stuff like that, and they have a history of such silliness.



On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 9:54:24 AM UTC-8, vontresc wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 11:10:22 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Hi Renny

Great question. Here is a long-winded way of saying I don't know the answer :-) But maybe it recaps some useful stuff.

I don't see how it could be "illegal" there is no law or regulation I'm aware of saying you can't do this in an experimental aircraft. What exact ground services you would receive, wether its a good idea or would upset folks, etc. I don't know.

For completeness let me just mention the relevant 1090ES part of the ADS-B carriage regulations here.

14 CFR 91.225 requires 1090ES Out TSO-C166b Class A1, A1S, A2, A3, B1S, or B1 devices, or "meets performance of" for experimental aircraft. And yes the "Class" spec includes power output but also other stuff, For example Class A devices are ADS-B Out and In (think transport category aircraft), Class B devices are ADS-B Out only.

The Trig TT-22 is TSO-C166b Class B1S device
The Trig TT-21 is TSO-C166b Class B0 device -- so does not meet the requirement.

Requiring higher-power 1090ES Out devices allowed the FAA to save money by requiring fewer ADS-B ground stations. My understanding was Trig was surprised by this FAA requirement that came into effect after they were already selling the TT-21 in the USA.

And none of this changes any usefulness of the TT-21 as a plain transponder before or after 2020. If you are flying with a Trig TT-21 transponder in a glider today, you already have a fantastic device for providing traffic information about your glider to ATC SSR and TCAS and PCAS systems and via TIS-B to suitably equipped aircraft. Obviously some of those things only work when within appropriate service coverage... but TCAS is great technology or last resort in part because it works *everywhere*. And none of that goes away in 2020.... but some ATC SSR is expected to be decommissioned in the longer term.

----

So you can today use a TT-22 but not a TT-21 to meet the FAA 2020 ADS-B Out carriage requirements, but as you point out gliders are currently exempt from most of those requirements.

For an experimental aircraft, you can in principle connect up any GPS source to an ADS-B out system as long as you correctly configure the GPS source to reflect it's quality parameters like SIL. Transmitting lies about the GPS data or it's quality is just stupid and is really going to **** off the FAA and may earn you a visit from some feds. Lets see if anything is left of NavWorx after the FAA finishes chewing on them for their apparent decision to transmitting false GPS SIL etc. data. This is where you absolutely should not be guessing or messing around. Make sure you work with manufacturers instructions for doing that, and if in doubt check with them (start with the transponder manufacture).

I can't recall that the ADS-B device class being transmitted in any ADS-B extended squitter messages. There may be some ways to reverse engineer this is you are also interrogating the underlying mode S transponder. I'd have to dig though too much stuff now to check. I have no idea if the FAA ADS-B ground infrastructure would transmit TIS-B or ADS-R for client aircraft if it knew that a 1090ES device was "under-spec" at Class B0. I suspect they might not care/look at that, they certainly do care/look at the GPS source spec data (like SIL) and that is clearly transmitted. This would be interesting to ask FAA folks about...

And just playing with this is certainly not what I'd do. I'd be talking to Trig and local FSDO folks to make sure they are all OK with this any "experimenting". A TT-21 with a TN71 is really an early version of a TABS device, so asking the right questions might help find Trig and FAA folks interested in working with anybody who wanted to play with this.

It's certainly my hope that *if* gliders lose their ADS-B Out exemption that TABS regulations are introduced that would hopefully help provide a lower-cost/easier to install etc. method of compliance. Of course I'd also like to see TABS regulations introduced even if the ADS-B Out exemption was not removed.

The folks at Trig have been very helpful every contact I've had with them, and they are a great place to start asking with these questions if you own a TT-21 today.


Darryl


On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:54:13 PM UTC-8, Renny wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:41:22 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:11:44 PM UTC-8, glidergreg wrote:
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

You may me correct on this, the TN72 looks like it will require an antenna and a brief search of TSO-C190 antenna much like the one used on the TN70 are upwards of $300.00 and more. Ironically I don't think the TN72 is TSOed but the antenna may well need to be.

The TN72 at it exists today cannot be installed in any certified aircraft including certified gliders. Since it's an experimental market focused product I'm not sure why you are talking about TSO antennas. Having an actual TSO GPS antenna is not a requirement there.

A TN72 can be installed as an ADS-B Out GPS source in an experimental glider, and since it's a "meets performance of TSO-C145c" device it absolutely will trigger TIS-B and ADS-R ground services. But few glider will likely be equipped to receive that data (a PowerFLARM receives 1090ES direct only, it does not receive ADS-R, TIS-B or FIS-B). Trig are good guys they damn well would not sell a product in the experimental market that did not do that correctly (Uh unlike some other folks).

That the TN72 is TSO-C199 certified is irrelevant to any use today since there are no TSO-C199 related use or installation regulations.

What will happen moving forward is intersting. And may change here as TSO-C199 related regulations appear and if (unrelated) ADS-B installation STCs are developed by folks.

For people with a Trig TT-22 in an experimental glider who want to play with ADS-B out the TN72 is good news. It would be great to hear about them being installed and used.

As Andez says all this has been well discussed before, including in posts earlier n this very thread.

Darryl - I much appreciate all of the info you provide on this issue. Quick question....In a glider with an experimental airworthiness certificate, it seems one can now install a Trig TN72, but would it actually be "illegal" (if that is the proper term) to link it up to a Trig TT-21? I know that the TT-22 is a Class I transponder and it has the 250 watt power requirement and meets the ADS-B transponder requirements, but in an experimental glider is there any way the TT-21 could still legally be used (especially since gliders are actually exempt from the ADS-B requirement in 2020)?

Thanks for your excellent help - Renny

Darryl, have you seen any new developments from Trig about their TABS solution? They have been pretty quiet about it recently.

Also looks like uAvionix got one of their devices approved in the UK as an EC device. Is that similar to the TABS TSO here in the US?

Peter

Thanks for the updates. I really wish the FAA could actually summarize their own BS like you do for us. I have consistently gotten better info out of you than the FAA itself.

So back to TABS/TSO-C199. Why even introduce this stuff if there is nothing in the regs for installation/use? When it first came out, it got to thinking this may be a decent "solution" for gliders and other non electrical system users of the NAS. This ADS-B thing has really gotten idiotic.

Peter

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 2:10:35 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Introducing TABS/TSO-C199 approved devices to the market now does make sense. I did not meant to sound like it did not. It's possible for manufactures to add that approval, at least the Class B GPS part, to other devices at relatively low cost Trig and others worked with the FAA on the development of TSO-C199 so it's natural to see them approve devices agains that standard as soon as they can. And makes all perfect sense, hopefully building for use under future regulations. In the case of the TN72 it also "meets perforamnce of TSO-C145c" so can be used in experimental aircraft today to meet the 2020 Compliance requirements--but because it is not actually TSO-C145c approved it can't be installed in certified aircraft. The TN72 being "TSO" but not "that-TSO" has unfortunately confused people.

This whole space may change if folks are able to pull off AML STCs that use non-TSO GPS sources... that potential and process around that is something I really don't currently understand.

As much as I have also been frustrated with the FAA and ADS-B, I think the folks there working on TSO-C199/TABS, and the vendors involved with that have tried to do/are working towards the right thing.

I would like to see TABS installation and carriage regulations at least for gliders and similar aircraft. OTOH, I would not be surprised if that is accompanied by loss of transponder or the 2020 ADS-B Out exemptions and TABS used as an alternate means of compliance.

The recent fatal mid-air collision in the UK is a terribly sad reminder of dangers here.

Darryl


On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 11:27:50 AM UTC-8, vontresc wrote:
On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 12:50:59 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
There are no TABS/TSO-C199 installation or use regulations in the USA so TSO-C199 products being introduced into the market are not that intersting. A Trig TT-21 or TT-22 will meet TABS Class A device requirements since they are effectively meet the TSO requirement in being full Mode-S transponders. But again we need to see actual regulations to see how stuff will work. The Trig TN72 *is* a TSO-C199 Class B (e.g. GPS) device. But again that TSO is not the same as having a TSO-C166b (1090ES Out) and give you no 2020 Mandate compliance in any aircraft. Neither can you actually install in in any certified aircraft. If you have an experimental glider and want to play with ADS-B Out in the USA then the Trig TT-22 and TN72 looks like the way to go right now.

No the UK EC program is not the same as TABS. TABS Class A devices (the Class B part is just the GPS) both feature a reduced functionality Mode-S transponder and 1090ES Out. And are compatible with both TCAS and the FAA ADS-B system, including being enough to get client services for TIS-B and ADS-R (which yes PowerFLARM can't receive anyhow). The uAvionix Skylym Echo ATT-20B is 1090ES Out and In only with no basic Mode-S transponder support.. So not TCAS RA compatibility and unclear if its enough to trigger FAA based ADS-B ground services. Lack of TCAS compatibility is a dangerous shortcoming when worrying about flight near busy airspace. It's also not possible to add that uAvionix device to an aircraft with a separate transponder (they could interfere with each other). I expect/hope the FAA focus in on TABS regulations in the USA.

uAvionix have a problem with how they dribble bull**** like: "Worlds first approved ADS-B Out Solution" ah right, if you ignore all the other ADS-B Out systems from all those other manufacturers. It's hard to take them seriously when they do stuff like that, and they have a history of such silliness.



On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 9:54:24 AM UTC-8, vontresc wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 11:10:22 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Hi Renny

Great question. Here is a long-winded way of saying I don't know the answer :-) But maybe it recaps some useful stuff.

I don't see how it could be "illegal" there is no law or regulation I'm aware of saying you can't do this in an experimental aircraft. What exact ground services you would receive, wether its a good idea or would upset folks, etc. I don't know.

For completeness let me just mention the relevant 1090ES part of the ADS-B carriage regulations here.

14 CFR 91.225 requires 1090ES Out TSO-C166b Class A1, A1S, A2, A3, B1S, or B1 devices, or "meets performance of" for experimental aircraft. And yes the "Class" spec includes power output but also other stuff, For example Class A devices are ADS-B Out and In (think transport category aircraft), Class B devices are ADS-B Out only.

The Trig TT-22 is TSO-C166b Class B1S device
The Trig TT-21 is TSO-C166b Class B0 device -- so does not meet the requirement.

Requiring higher-power 1090ES Out devices allowed the FAA to save money by requiring fewer ADS-B ground stations. My understanding was Trig was surprised by this FAA requirement that came into effect after they were already selling the TT-21 in the USA.

And none of this changes any usefulness of the TT-21 as a plain transponder before or after 2020. If you are flying with a Trig TT-21 transponder in a glider today, you already have a fantastic device for providing traffic information about your glider to ATC SSR and TCAS and PCAS systems and via TIS-B to suitably equipped aircraft. Obviously some of those things only work when within appropriate service coverage... but TCAS is great technology or last resort in part because it works *everywhere*. And none of that goes away in 2020.... but some ATC SSR is expected to be decommissioned in the longer term.

----

So you can today use a TT-22 but not a TT-21 to meet the FAA 2020 ADS-B Out carriage requirements, but as you point out gliders are currently exempt from most of those requirements.

For an experimental aircraft, you can in principle connect up any GPS source to an ADS-B out system as long as you correctly configure the GPS source to reflect it's quality parameters like SIL. Transmitting lies about the GPS data or it's quality is just stupid and is really going to **** off the FAA and may earn you a visit from some feds. Lets see if anything is left of NavWorx after the FAA finishes chewing on them for their apparent decision to transmitting false GPS SIL etc. data. This is where you absolutely should not be guessing or messing around. Make sure you work with manufacturers instructions for doing that, and if in doubt check with them (start with the transponder manufacture).

I can't recall that the ADS-B device class being transmitted in any ADS-B extended squitter messages. There may be some ways to reverse engineer this is you are also interrogating the underlying mode S transponder. I'd have to dig though too much stuff now to check. I have no idea if the FAA ADS-B ground infrastructure would transmit TIS-B or ADS-R for client aircraft if it knew that a 1090ES device was "under-spec" at Class B0. I suspect they might not care/look at that, they certainly do care/look at the GPS source spec data (like SIL) and that is clearly transmitted. This would be interesting to ask FAA folks about...

And just playing with this is certainly not what I'd do. I'd be talking to Trig and local FSDO folks to make sure they are all OK with this any "experimenting". A TT-21 with a TN71 is really an early version of a TABS device, so asking the right questions might help find Trig and FAA folks interested in working with anybody who wanted to play with this.

It's certainly my hope that *if* gliders lose their ADS-B Out exemption that TABS regulations are introduced that would hopefully help provide a lower-cost/easier to install etc. method of compliance. Of course I'd also like to see TABS regulations introduced even if the ADS-B Out exemption was not removed.

The folks at Trig have been very helpful every contact I've had with them, and they are a great place to start asking with these questions if you own a TT-21 today.


Darryl


On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:54:13 PM UTC-8, Renny wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:41:22 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:11:44 PM UTC-8, glidergreg wrote:
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

You may me correct on this, the TN72 looks like it will require an antenna and a brief search of TSO-C190 antenna much like the one used on the TN70 are upwards of $300.00 and more. Ironically I don't think the TN72 is TSOed but the antenna may well need to be.

The TN72 at it exists today cannot be installed in any certified aircraft including certified gliders. Since it's an experimental market focused product I'm not sure why you are talking about TSO antennas. Having an actual TSO GPS antenna is not a requirement there.

A TN72 can be installed as an ADS-B Out GPS source in an experimental glider, and since it's a "meets performance of TSO-C145c" device it absolutely will trigger TIS-B and ADS-R ground services. But few glider will likely be equipped to receive that data (a PowerFLARM receives 1090ES direct only, it does not receive ADS-R, TIS-B or FIS-B). Trig are good guys they damn well would not sell a product in the experimental market that did not do that correctly (Uh unlike some other folks).

That the TN72 is TSO-C199 certified is irrelevant to any use today since there are no TSO-C199 related use or installation regulations.

What will happen moving forward is intersting. And may change here as TSO-C199 related regulations appear and if (unrelated) ADS-B installation STCs are developed by folks.

For people with a Trig TT-22 in an experimental glider who want to play with ADS-B out the TN72 is good news. It would be great to hear about them being installed and used.

As Andez says all this has been well discussed before, including in posts earlier n this very thread.

Darryl - I much appreciate all of the info you provide on this issue. Quick question....In a glider with an experimental airworthiness certificate, it seems one can now install a Trig TN72, but would it actually be "illegal" (if that is the proper term) to link it up to a Trig TT-21? I know that the TT-22 is a Class I transponder and it has the 250 watt power requirement and meets the ADS-B transponder requirements, but in an experimental glider is there any way the TT-21 could still legally be used (especially since gliders are actually exempt from the ADS-B requirement in 2020)?

Thanks for your excellent help - Renny

Darryl, have you seen any new developments from Trig about their TABS solution? They have been pretty quiet about it recently.

Also looks like uAvionix got one of their devices approved in the UK as an EC device. Is that similar to the TABS TSO here in the US?

Peter

Thanks for the updates. I really wish the FAA could actually summarize their own BS like you do for us. I have consistently gotten better info out of you than the FAA itself.

So back to TABS/TSO-C199. Why even introduce this stuff if there is nothing in the regs for installation/use? When it first came out, it got to thinking this may be a decent "solution" for gliders and other non electrical system users of the NAS. This ADS-B thing has really gotten idiotic.

Peter

I for one would love to have something in my Libelle. Thankfully it is Exp, so I may be able to do one of the lower cost options. Even then I am still looking at $1500-$2000. This shouldn't be so damned expensive...

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 2:50:10 PM UTC-6, vontresc wrote:
On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 2:10:35 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Introducing TABS/TSO-C199 approved devices to the market now does make sense. I did not meant to sound like it did not. It's possible for manufactures to add that approval, at least the Class B GPS part, to other devices at relatively low cost Trig and others worked with the FAA on the development of TSO-C199 so it's natural to see them approve devices agains that standard as soon as they can. And makes all perfect sense, hopefully building for use under future regulations. In the case of the TN72 it also "meets perforamnce of TSO-C145c" so can be used in experimental aircraft today to meet the 2020 Compliance requirements--but because it is not actually TSO-C145c approved it can't be installed in certified aircraft. The TN72 being "TSO" but not "that-TSO" has unfortunately confused people.

This whole space may change if folks are able to pull off AML STCs that use non-TSO GPS sources... that potential and process around that is something I really don't currently understand.

As much as I have also been frustrated with the FAA and ADS-B, I think the folks there working on TSO-C199/TABS, and the vendors involved with that have tried to do/are working towards the right thing.

I would like to see TABS installation and carriage regulations at least for gliders and similar aircraft. OTOH, I would not be surprised if that is accompanied by loss of transponder or the 2020 ADS-B Out exemptions and TABS used as an alternate means of compliance.

The recent fatal mid-air collision in the UK is a terribly sad reminder of dangers here.

Darryl


On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 11:27:50 AM UTC-8, vontresc wrote:
On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 12:50:59 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
There are no TABS/TSO-C199 installation or use regulations in the USA so TSO-C199 products being introduced into the market are not that intersting. A Trig TT-21 or TT-22 will meet TABS Class A device requirements since they are effectively meet the TSO requirement in being full Mode-S transponders. But again we need to see actual regulations to see how stuff will work. The Trig TN72 *is* a TSO-C199 Class B (e.g. GPS) device. But again that TSO is not the same as having a TSO-C166b (1090ES Out) and give you no 2020 Mandate compliance in any aircraft. Neither can you actually install in in any certified aircraft. If you have an experimental glider and want to play with ADS-B Out in the USA then the Trig TT-22 and TN72 looks like the way to go right now.

No the UK EC program is not the same as TABS. TABS Class A devices (the Class B part is just the GPS) both feature a reduced functionality Mode-S transponder and 1090ES Out. And are compatible with both TCAS and the FAA ADS-B system, including being enough to get client services for TIS-B and ADS-R (which yes PowerFLARM can't receive anyhow). The uAvionix Skylym Echo ATT-20B is 1090ES Out and In only with no basic Mode-S transponder support. So not TCAS RA compatibility and unclear if its enough to trigger FAA based ADS-B ground services. Lack of TCAS compatibility is a dangerous shortcoming when worrying about flight near busy airspace. It's also not possible to add that uAvionix device to an aircraft with a separate transponder (they could interfere with each other). I expect/hope the FAA focus in on TABS regulations in the USA.

uAvionix have a problem with how they dribble bull**** like: "Worlds first approved ADS-B Out Solution" ah right, if you ignore all the other ADS-B Out systems from all those other manufacturers. It's hard to take them seriously when they do stuff like that, and they have a history of such silliness.



On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 9:54:24 AM UTC-8, vontresc wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 11:10:22 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Hi Renny

Great question. Here is a long-winded way of saying I don't know the answer :-) But maybe it recaps some useful stuff.

I don't see how it could be "illegal" there is no law or regulation I'm aware of saying you can't do this in an experimental aircraft. What exact ground services you would receive, wether its a good idea or would upset folks, etc. I don't know.

For completeness let me just mention the relevant 1090ES part of the ADS-B carriage regulations here.

14 CFR 91.225 requires 1090ES Out TSO-C166b Class A1, A1S, A2, A3, B1S, or B1 devices, or "meets performance of" for experimental aircraft.. And yes the "Class" spec includes power output but also other stuff, For example Class A devices are ADS-B Out and In (think transport category aircraft), Class B devices are ADS-B Out only.

The Trig TT-22 is TSO-C166b Class B1S device
The Trig TT-21 is TSO-C166b Class B0 device -- so does not meet the requirement.

Requiring higher-power 1090ES Out devices allowed the FAA to save money by requiring fewer ADS-B ground stations. My understanding was Trig was surprised by this FAA requirement that came into effect after they were already selling the TT-21 in the USA.

And none of this changes any usefulness of the TT-21 as a plain transponder before or after 2020. If you are flying with a Trig TT-21 transponder in a glider today, you already have a fantastic device for providing traffic information about your glider to ATC SSR and TCAS and PCAS systems and via TIS-B to suitably equipped aircraft. Obviously some of those things only work when within appropriate service coverage... but TCAS is great technology or last resort in part because it works *everywhere*. And none of that goes away in 2020.... but some ATC SSR is expected to be decommissioned in the longer term.

----

So you can today use a TT-22 but not a TT-21 to meet the FAA 2020 ADS-B Out carriage requirements, but as you point out gliders are currently exempt from most of those requirements.

For an experimental aircraft, you can in principle connect up any GPS source to an ADS-B out system as long as you correctly configure the GPS source to reflect it's quality parameters like SIL. Transmitting lies about the GPS data or it's quality is just stupid and is really going to **** off the FAA and may earn you a visit from some feds. Lets see if anything is left of NavWorx after the FAA finishes chewing on them for their apparent decision to transmitting false GPS SIL etc. data. This is where you absolutely should not be guessing or messing around. Make sure you work with manufacturers instructions for doing that, and if in doubt check with them (start with the transponder manufacture).

I can't recall that the ADS-B device class being transmitted in any ADS-B extended squitter messages. There may be some ways to reverse engineer this is you are also interrogating the underlying mode S transponder.. I'd have to dig though too much stuff now to check. I have no idea if the FAA ADS-B ground infrastructure would transmit TIS-B or ADS-R for client aircraft if it knew that a 1090ES device was "under-spec" at Class B0. I suspect they might not care/look at that, they certainly do care/look at the GPS source spec data (like SIL) and that is clearly transmitted. This would be interesting to ask FAA folks about...

And just playing with this is certainly not what I'd do. I'd be talking to Trig and local FSDO folks to make sure they are all OK with this any "experimenting". A TT-21 with a TN71 is really an early version of a TABS device, so asking the right questions might help find Trig and FAA folks interested in working with anybody who wanted to play with this.

It's certainly my hope that *if* gliders lose their ADS-B Out exemption that TABS regulations are introduced that would hopefully help provide a lower-cost/easier to install etc. method of compliance. Of course I'd also like to see TABS regulations introduced even if the ADS-B Out exemption was not removed.

The folks at Trig have been very helpful every contact I've had with them, and they are a great place to start asking with these questions if you own a TT-21 today.


Darryl


On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:54:13 PM UTC-8, Renny wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:41:22 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:11:44 PM UTC-8, glidergreg wrote:
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

You may me correct on this, the TN72 looks like it will require an antenna and a brief search of TSO-C190 antenna much like the one used on the TN70 are upwards of $300.00 and more. Ironically I don't think the TN72 is TSOed but the antenna may well need to be.

The TN72 at it exists today cannot be installed in any certified aircraft including certified gliders. Since it's an experimental market focused product I'm not sure why you are talking about TSO antennas. Having an actual TSO GPS antenna is not a requirement there.

A TN72 can be installed as an ADS-B Out GPS source in an experimental glider, and since it's a "meets performance of TSO-C145c" device it absolutely will trigger TIS-B and ADS-R ground services. But few glider will likely be equipped to receive that data (a PowerFLARM receives 1090ES direct only, it does not receive ADS-R, TIS-B or FIS-B). Trig are good guys they damn well would not sell a product in the experimental market that did not do that correctly (Uh unlike some other folks).

That the TN72 is TSO-C199 certified is irrelevant to any use today since there are no TSO-C199 related use or installation regulations..

What will happen moving forward is intersting. And may change here as TSO-C199 related regulations appear and if (unrelated) ADS-B installation STCs are developed by folks.

For people with a Trig TT-22 in an experimental glider who want to play with ADS-B out the TN72 is good news. It would be great to hear about them being installed and used.

As Andez says all this has been well discussed before, including in posts earlier n this very thread.

Darryl - I much appreciate all of the info you provide on this issue. Quick question....In a glider with an experimental airworthiness certificate, it seems one can now install a Trig TN72, but would it actually be "illegal" (if that is the proper term) to link it up to a Trig TT-21? I know that the TT-22 is a Class I transponder and it has the 250 watt power requirement and meets the ADS-B transponder requirements, but in an experimental glider is there any way the TT-21 could still legally be used (especially since gliders are actually exempt from the ADS-B requirement in 2020)?

Thanks for your excellent help - Renny

Darryl, have you seen any new developments from Trig about their TABS solution? They have been pretty quiet about it recently.

Also looks like uAvionix got one of their devices approved in the UK as an EC device. Is that similar to the TABS TSO here in the US?

Peter

Thanks for the updates. I really wish the FAA could actually summarize their own BS like you do for us. I have consistently gotten better info out of you than the FAA itself.

So back to TABS/TSO-C199. Why even introduce this stuff if there is nothing in the regs for installation/use? When it first came out, it got to thinking this may be a decent "solution" for gliders and other non electrical system users of the NAS. This ADS-B thing has really gotten idiotic.

Peter

I for one would love to have something in my Libelle. Thankfully it is Exp, so I may be able to do one of the lower cost options. Even then I am still looking at $1500-$2000. This shouldn't be so damned expensive...

One word, Peter: PowerFlarm (after you install a transponder). I see all the ADS-B 1090 reporting traffic going into Chicago B airspace, plus C and S transponders plus many other gliders.

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 1:10:35 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Introducing TABS/TSO-C199 approved devices to the market now does make sense. I did not meant to sound like it did not. It's possible for manufactures to add that approval, at least the Class B GPS part, to other devices at relatively low cost Trig and others worked with the FAA on the development of TSO-C199 so it's natural to see them approve devices agains that standard as soon as they can. And makes all perfect sense, hopefully building for use under future regulations. In the case of the TN72 it also "meets perforamnce of TSO-C145c" so can be used in experimental aircraft today to meet the 2020 Compliance requirements--but because it is not actually TSO-C145c approved it can't be installed in certified aircraft. The TN72 being "TSO" but not "that-TSO" has unfortunately confused people.

This whole space may change if folks are able to pull off AML STCs that use non-TSO GPS sources... that potential and process around that is something I really don't currently understand.

As much as I have also been frustrated with the FAA and ADS-B, I think the folks there working on TSO-C199/TABS, and the vendors involved with that have tried to do/are working towards the right thing.

I would like to see TABS installation and carriage regulations at least for gliders and similar aircraft. OTOH, I would not be surprised if that is accompanied by loss of transponder or the 2020 ADS-B Out exemptions and TABS used as an alternate means of compliance.

The recent fatal mid-air collision in the UK is a terribly sad reminder of dangers here.

Darryl


On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 11:27:50 AM UTC-8, vontresc wrote:
On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 12:50:59 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
There are no TABS/TSO-C199 installation or use regulations in the USA so TSO-C199 products being introduced into the market are not that intersting. A Trig TT-21 or TT-22 will meet TABS Class A device requirements since they are effectively meet the TSO requirement in being full Mode-S transponders. But again we need to see actual regulations to see how stuff will work. The Trig TN72 *is* a TSO-C199 Class B (e.g. GPS) device. But again that TSO is not the same as having a TSO-C166b (1090ES Out) and give you no 2020 Mandate compliance in any aircraft. Neither can you actually install in in any certified aircraft. If you have an experimental glider and want to play with ADS-B Out in the USA then the Trig TT-22 and TN72 looks like the way to go right now.

No the UK EC program is not the same as TABS. TABS Class A devices (the Class B part is just the GPS) both feature a reduced functionality Mode-S transponder and 1090ES Out. And are compatible with both TCAS and the FAA ADS-B system, including being enough to get client services for TIS-B and ADS-R (which yes PowerFLARM can't receive anyhow). The uAvionix Skylym Echo ATT-20B is 1090ES Out and In only with no basic Mode-S transponder support.. So not TCAS RA compatibility and unclear if its enough to trigger FAA based ADS-B ground services. Lack of TCAS compatibility is a dangerous shortcoming when worrying about flight near busy airspace. It's also not possible to add that uAvionix device to an aircraft with a separate transponder (they could interfere with each other). I expect/hope the FAA focus in on TABS regulations in the USA.

uAvionix have a problem with how they dribble bull**** like: "Worlds first approved ADS-B Out Solution" ah right, if you ignore all the other ADS-B Out systems from all those other manufacturers. It's hard to take them seriously when they do stuff like that, and they have a history of such silliness.



On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 9:54:24 AM UTC-8, vontresc wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 11:10:22 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Hi Renny

Great question. Here is a long-winded way of saying I don't know the answer :-) But maybe it recaps some useful stuff.

I don't see how it could be "illegal" there is no law or regulation I'm aware of saying you can't do this in an experimental aircraft. What exact ground services you would receive, wether its a good idea or would upset folks, etc. I don't know.

For completeness let me just mention the relevant 1090ES part of the ADS-B carriage regulations here.

14 CFR 91.225 requires 1090ES Out TSO-C166b Class A1, A1S, A2, A3, B1S, or B1 devices, or "meets performance of" for experimental aircraft. And yes the "Class" spec includes power output but also other stuff, For example Class A devices are ADS-B Out and In (think transport category aircraft), Class B devices are ADS-B Out only.

The Trig TT-22 is TSO-C166b Class B1S device
The Trig TT-21 is TSO-C166b Class B0 device -- so does not meet the requirement.

Requiring higher-power 1090ES Out devices allowed the FAA to save money by requiring fewer ADS-B ground stations. My understanding was Trig was surprised by this FAA requirement that came into effect after they were already selling the TT-21 in the USA.

And none of this changes any usefulness of the TT-21 as a plain transponder before or after 2020. If you are flying with a Trig TT-21 transponder in a glider today, you already have a fantastic device for providing traffic information about your glider to ATC SSR and TCAS and PCAS systems and via TIS-B to suitably equipped aircraft. Obviously some of those things only work when within appropriate service coverage... but TCAS is great technology or last resort in part because it works *everywhere*. And none of that goes away in 2020.... but some ATC SSR is expected to be decommissioned in the longer term.

----

So you can today use a TT-22 but not a TT-21 to meet the FAA 2020 ADS-B Out carriage requirements, but as you point out gliders are currently exempt from most of those requirements.

For an experimental aircraft, you can in principle connect up any GPS source to an ADS-B out system as long as you correctly configure the GPS source to reflect it's quality parameters like SIL. Transmitting lies about the GPS data or it's quality is just stupid and is really going to **** off the FAA and may earn you a visit from some feds. Lets see if anything is left of NavWorx after the FAA finishes chewing on them for their apparent decision to transmitting false GPS SIL etc. data. This is where you absolutely should not be guessing or messing around. Make sure you work with manufacturers instructions for doing that, and if in doubt check with them (start with the transponder manufacture).

I can't recall that the ADS-B device class being transmitted in any ADS-B extended squitter messages. There may be some ways to reverse engineer this is you are also interrogating the underlying mode S transponder. I'd have to dig though too much stuff now to check. I have no idea if the FAA ADS-B ground infrastructure would transmit TIS-B or ADS-R for client aircraft if it knew that a 1090ES device was "under-spec" at Class B0. I suspect they might not care/look at that, they certainly do care/look at the GPS source spec data (like SIL) and that is clearly transmitted. This would be interesting to ask FAA folks about...

And just playing with this is certainly not what I'd do. I'd be talking to Trig and local FSDO folks to make sure they are all OK with this any "experimenting". A TT-21 with a TN71 is really an early version of a TABS device, so asking the right questions might help find Trig and FAA folks interested in working with anybody who wanted to play with this.

It's certainly my hope that *if* gliders lose their ADS-B Out exemption that TABS regulations are introduced that would hopefully help provide a lower-cost/easier to install etc. method of compliance. Of course I'd also like to see TABS regulations introduced even if the ADS-B Out exemption was not removed.

The folks at Trig have been very helpful every contact I've had with them, and they are a great place to start asking with these questions if you own a TT-21 today.


Darryl


On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:54:13 PM UTC-8, Renny wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:41:22 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:11:44 PM UTC-8, glidergreg wrote:
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

You may me correct on this, the TN72 looks like it will require an antenna and a brief search of TSO-C190 antenna much like the one used on the TN70 are upwards of $300.00 and more. Ironically I don't think the TN72 is TSOed but the antenna may well need to be.

The TN72 at it exists today cannot be installed in any certified aircraft including certified gliders. Since it's an experimental market focused product I'm not sure why you are talking about TSO antennas. Having an actual TSO GPS antenna is not a requirement there.

A TN72 can be installed as an ADS-B Out GPS source in an experimental glider, and since it's a "meets performance of TSO-C145c" device it absolutely will trigger TIS-B and ADS-R ground services. But few glider will likely be equipped to receive that data (a PowerFLARM receives 1090ES direct only, it does not receive ADS-R, TIS-B or FIS-B). Trig are good guys they damn well would not sell a product in the experimental market that did not do that correctly (Uh unlike some other folks).

That the TN72 is TSO-C199 certified is irrelevant to any use today since there are no TSO-C199 related use or installation regulations.

What will happen moving forward is intersting. And may change here as TSO-C199 related regulations appear and if (unrelated) ADS-B installation STCs are developed by folks.

For people with a Trig TT-22 in an experimental glider who want to play with ADS-B out the TN72 is good news. It would be great to hear about them being installed and used.

As Andez says all this has been well discussed before, including in posts earlier n this very thread.

Darryl - I much appreciate all of the info you provide on this issue. Quick question....In a glider with an experimental airworthiness certificate, it seems one can now install a Trig TN72, but would it actually be "illegal" (if that is the proper term) to link it up to a Trig TT-21? I know that the TT-22 is a Class I transponder and it has the 250 watt power requirement and meets the ADS-B transponder requirements, but in an experimental glider is there any way the TT-21 could still legally be used (especially since gliders are actually exempt from the ADS-B requirement in 2020)?

Thanks for your excellent help - Renny

Darryl, have you seen any new developments from Trig about their TABS solution? They have been pretty quiet about it recently.

Also looks like uAvionix got one of their devices approved in the UK as an EC device. Is that similar to the TABS TSO here in the US?

Peter

Thanks for the updates. I really wish the FAA could actually summarize their own BS like you do for us. I have consistently gotten better info out of you than the FAA itself.

So back to TABS/TSO-C199. Why even introduce this stuff if there is nothing in the regs for installation/use? When it first came out, it got to thinking this may be a decent "solution" for gliders and other non electrical system users of the NAS. This ADS-B thing has really gotten idiotic.

Peter

This message just came in from Trig this morning based on an inquiry I recently made about the potential use of a TT21 and the new TN72 in an "experimental" glider. It seems like pretty good news to me...
Thx - Renny

"Dear Renny,

Thank you for your interest in our TN72 GPS receiver.

The TN72 is compatible with your TT21 transponder and is an ideal choice for your glider.
TABS exists to allow exempt aircraft like yours to participate in ADS-B.
Your TT21 transponder exceeds the technical requirements of TABS and so does not require upgrading.

The TN72 will be shipping in early 2017 and will be available through all Trig dealers.

If you need any more help with this, then please don’t hesitate to ask."

This is somewhat misleading. PowerFlarm doesn't actually let you "see" mode C and S transponders. It warns you if a transponder equipped aircraft is in your vicinity. It tells you the altitude and an approximate range, but you have absolutely no idea if the aircraft is in front of you, behind, you etc.

If the PowerFlarm guys had bothered to implement TIS-B, it would be be able to tell you exactly where the transponder equipped aircraft is. Similarly, you get absolutely no visibility for UAT equipped aircraft or drones.

This may be an acceptable product for Europe, but definitely a half baked solution for the US market.

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 8:28:17 AM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:
This is somewhat misleading. PowerFlarm doesn't actually let you "see" mode C and S transponders. It warns you if a transponder equipped aircraft is in your vicinity. It tells you the altitude and an approximate range, but you have absolutely no idea if the aircraft is in front of you, behind, you etc.

If the PowerFlarm guys had bothered to implement TIS-B, it would be be able to tell you exactly where the transponder equipped aircraft is. Similarly, you get absolutely no visibility for UAT equipped aircraft or drones.

This may be an acceptable product for Europe, but definitely a half baked solution for the US market.

I can direct the 'misleading' label right back at you, Mike. You failed to mention that the transponder traffic I'm talking about is only visible if it also is equipped with an ADS-B out system. With just a transponder heading for you, you see bumpkes on your ADS-in screen.
But as long as you can bad-mouth PFlarm, what does it matter?
Herb

On Wednesday, December 7, 2016 at 9:42:09 AM UTC-6, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 2:50:10 PM UTC-6, vontresc wrote:
On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 2:10:35 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Introducing TABS/TSO-C199 approved devices to the market now does make sense. I did not meant to sound like it did not. It's possible for manufactures to add that approval, at least the Class B GPS part, to other devices at relatively low cost Trig and others worked with the FAA on the development of TSO-C199 so it's natural to see them approve devices agains that standard as soon as they can. And makes all perfect sense, hopefully building for use under future regulations. In the case of the TN72 it also "meets perforamnce of TSO-C145c" so can be used in experimental aircraft today to meet the 2020 Compliance requirements--but because it is not actually TSO-C145c approved it can't be installed in certified aircraft. The TN72 being "TSO" but not "that-TSO" has unfortunately confused people.

This whole space may change if folks are able to pull off AML STCs that use non-TSO GPS sources... that potential and process around that is something I really don't currently understand.

As much as I have also been frustrated with the FAA and ADS-B, I think the folks there working on TSO-C199/TABS, and the vendors involved with that have tried to do/are working towards the right thing.

I would like to see TABS installation and carriage regulations at least for gliders and similar aircraft. OTOH, I would not be surprised if that is accompanied by loss of transponder or the 2020 ADS-B Out exemptions and TABS used as an alternate means of compliance.

The recent fatal mid-air collision in the UK is a terribly sad reminder of dangers here.

Darryl


On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 11:27:50 AM UTC-8, vontresc wrote:
On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 12:50:59 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
There are no TABS/TSO-C199 installation or use regulations in the USA so TSO-C199 products being introduced into the market are not that intersting. A Trig TT-21 or TT-22 will meet TABS Class A device requirements since they are effectively meet the TSO requirement in being full Mode-S transponders. But again we need to see actual regulations to see how stuff will work. The Trig TN72 *is* a TSO-C199 Class B (e.g. GPS) device. But again that TSO is not the same as having a TSO-C166b (1090ES Out) and give you no 2020 Mandate compliance in any aircraft. Neither can you actually install in in any certified aircraft. If you have an experimental glider and want to play with ADS-B Out in the USA then the Trig TT-22 and TN72 looks like the way to go right now.

No the UK EC program is not the same as TABS. TABS Class A devices (the Class B part is just the GPS) both feature a reduced functionality Mode-S transponder and 1090ES Out. And are compatible with both TCAS and the FAA ADS-B system, including being enough to get client services for TIS-B and ADS-R (which yes PowerFLARM can't receive anyhow). The uAvionix Skylym Echo ATT-20B is 1090ES Out and In only with no basic Mode-S transponder support. So not TCAS RA compatibility and unclear if its enough to trigger FAA based ADS-B ground services. Lack of TCAS compatibility is a dangerous shortcoming when worrying about flight near busy airspace. It's also not possible to add that uAvionix device to an aircraft with a separate transponder (they could interfere with each other). I expect/hope the FAA focus in on TABS regulations in the USA.

uAvionix have a problem with how they dribble bull**** like: "Worlds first approved ADS-B Out Solution" ah right, if you ignore all the other ADS-B Out systems from all those other manufacturers. It's hard to take them seriously when they do stuff like that, and they have a history of such silliness.



On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 9:54:24 AM UTC-8, vontresc wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 11:10:22 PM UTC-6, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Hi Renny

Great question. Here is a long-winded way of saying I don't know the answer :-) But maybe it recaps some useful stuff.

I don't see how it could be "illegal" there is no law or regulation I'm aware of saying you can't do this in an experimental aircraft. What exact ground services you would receive, wether its a good idea or would upset folks, etc. I don't know.

For completeness let me just mention the relevant 1090ES part of the ADS-B carriage regulations here.

14 CFR 91.225 requires 1090ES Out TSO-C166b Class A1, A1S, A2, A3, B1S, or B1 devices, or "meets performance of" for experimental aircraft. And yes the "Class" spec includes power output but also other stuff, For example Class A devices are ADS-B Out and In (think transport category aircraft), Class B devices are ADS-B Out only.

The Trig TT-22 is TSO-C166b Class B1S device
The Trig TT-21 is TSO-C166b Class B0 device -- so does not meet the requirement.

Requiring higher-power 1090ES Out devices allowed the FAA to save money by requiring fewer ADS-B ground stations. My understanding was Trig was surprised by this FAA requirement that came into effect after they were already selling the TT-21 in the USA.

And none of this changes any usefulness of the TT-21 as a plain transponder before or after 2020. If you are flying with a Trig TT-21 transponder in a glider today, you already have a fantastic device for providing traffic information about your glider to ATC SSR and TCAS and PCAS systems and via TIS-B to suitably equipped aircraft. Obviously some of those things only work when within appropriate service coverage... but TCAS is great technology or last resort in part because it works *everywhere*. And none of that goes away in 2020.... but some ATC SSR is expected to be decommissioned in the longer term.

----

So you can today use a TT-22 but not a TT-21 to meet the FAA 2020 ADS-B Out carriage requirements, but as you point out gliders are currently exempt from most of those requirements.

For an experimental aircraft, you can in principle connect up any GPS source to an ADS-B out system as long as you correctly configure the GPS source to reflect it's quality parameters like SIL. Transmitting lies about the GPS data or it's quality is just stupid and is really going to **** off the FAA and may earn you a visit from some feds. Lets see if anything is left of NavWorx after the FAA finishes chewing on them for their apparent decision to transmitting false GPS SIL etc. data. This is where you absolutely should not be guessing or messing around. Make sure you work with manufacturers instructions for doing that, and if in doubt check with them (start with the transponder manufacture).

I can't recall that the ADS-B device class being transmitted in any ADS-B extended squitter messages. There may be some ways to reverse engineer this is you are also interrogating the underlying mode S transponder. I'd have to dig though too much stuff now to check. I have no idea if the FAA ADS-B ground infrastructure would transmit TIS-B or ADS-R for client aircraft if it knew that a 1090ES device was "under-spec" at Class B0. I suspect they might not care/look at that, they certainly do care/look at the GPS source spec data (like SIL) and that is clearly transmitted. This would be interesting to ask FAA folks about...

And just playing with this is certainly not what I'd do. I'd be talking to Trig and local FSDO folks to make sure they are all OK with this any "experimenting". A TT-21 with a TN71 is really an early version of a TABS device, so asking the right questions might help find Trig and FAA folks interested in working with anybody who wanted to play with this.

It's certainly my hope that *if* gliders lose their ADS-B Out exemption that TABS regulations are introduced that would hopefully help provide a lower-cost/easier to install etc. method of compliance. Of course I'd also like to see TABS regulations introduced even if the ADS-B Out exemption was not removed.

The folks at Trig have been very helpful every contact I've had with them, and they are a great place to start asking with these questions if you own a TT-21 today.


Darryl


On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:54:13 PM UTC-8, Renny wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:41:22 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:11:44 PM UTC-8, glidergreg wrote:
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

You may me correct on this, the TN72 looks like it will require an antenna and a brief search of TSO-C190 antenna much like the one used on the TN70 are upwards of $300.00 and more. Ironically I don't think the TN72 is TSOed but the antenna may well need to be.

The TN72 at it exists today cannot be installed in any certified aircraft including certified gliders. Since it's an experimental market focused product I'm not sure why you are talking about TSO antennas. Having an actual TSO GPS antenna is not a requirement there.

A TN72 can be installed as an ADS-B Out GPS source in an experimental glider, and since it's a "meets performance of TSO-C145c" device it absolutely will trigger TIS-B and ADS-R ground services. But few glider will likely be equipped to receive that data (a PowerFLARM receives 1090ES direct only, it does not receive ADS-R, TIS-B or FIS-B). Trig are good guys they damn well would not sell a product in the experimental market that did not do that correctly (Uh unlike some other folks).

That the TN72 is TSO-C199 certified is irrelevant to any use today since there are no TSO-C199 related use or installation regulations.

What will happen moving forward is intersting. And may change here as TSO-C199 related regulations appear and if (unrelated) ADS-B installation STCs are developed by folks.

For people with a Trig TT-22 in an experimental glider who want to play with ADS-B out the TN72 is good news. It would be great to hear about them being installed and used.

As Andez says all this has been well discussed before, including in posts earlier n this very thread.

Darryl - I much appreciate all of the info you provide on this issue. Quick question....In a glider with an experimental airworthiness certificate, it seems one can now install a Trig TN72, but would it actually be "illegal" (if that is the proper term) to link it up to a Trig TT-21? I know that the TT-22 is a Class I transponder and it has the 250 watt power requirement and meets the ADS-B transponder requirements, but in an experimental glider is there any way the TT-21 could still legally be used (especially since gliders are actually exempt from the ADS-B requirement in 2020)?

Thanks for your excellent help - Renny

Darryl, have you seen any new developments from Trig about their TABS solution? They have been pretty quiet about it recently.

Also looks like uAvionix got one of their devices approved in the UK as an EC device. Is that similar to the TABS TSO here in the US?

Peter

Thanks for the updates. I really wish the FAA could actually summarize their own BS like you do for us. I have consistently gotten better info out of you than the FAA itself.

So back to TABS/TSO-C199. Why even introduce this stuff if there is nothing in the regs for installation/use? When it first came out, it got to thinking this may be a decent "solution" for gliders and other non electrical system users of the NAS. This ADS-B thing has really gotten idiotic.

Peter

I for one would love to have something in my Libelle. Thankfully it is Exp, so I may be able to do one of the lower cost options. Even then I am still looking at $1500-$2000. This shouldn't be so damned expensive...

One word, Peter: PowerFlarm (after you install a transponder). I see all the ADS-B 1090 reporting traffic going into Chicago B airspace, plus C and S transponders plus many other gliders.

By the time i get the transponder and powerflarm installed you are talking 30-40% of the price I paid for the Libelle... ;-(