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SGP vs. Normal Racing



 
 
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  #11  
Old February 7th 18, 02:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Justin Craig[_3_]
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Posts: 65
Default SGP vs. Normal Racing

I suspect that is to do with the mass finish i.e. the likelihood of many
finishes at once and the airfield's ability to handle that scenario
safely.



At 12:30 07 February 2018, Jim White wrote:
At 09:09 07 February 2018, Justin Craig wrote:
What is interesting on this subject is that nobody has stated why the

fee
that SGP is less safe than the "standard format" competition.

I guess the IGC do. The SGP rule book limits the entry to 20 glider
compared to 50 in normal racing format.



  #12  
Old February 7th 18, 02:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Justin Craig[_3_]
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Posts: 65
Default SGP vs. Normal Racing

At 18:45 06 February 2018, John Cochrane wrote:
"SGP is a sport designed to be exciting to watch. It is designed for
spectat=
ors, not for participants. Well, it is designed for participants who want
the fame of winning something in front of a lot of spectators, but it is
not
designed to be a wide-participation version of the sport, or for participa
nts to enjoy cross country soaring. As such, it is quite sensible that SGP

have a lot more crashes".

Wrong....The SGP is designed for both participants and spectators.

Please elaborate on why you think it is "is quite sensible that SGP
have a lot more crashes". What an absurd statement.

Let’s not confuse the format with the mountains.

Take the mountains out of the equation, why is it no less safe than a
standard format comp?


  #13  
Old February 7th 18, 04:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jim White[_3_]
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Posts: 286
Default SGP vs. Normal Racing

At 13:14 07 February 2018, Justin Craig wrote:
At 18:45 06 February 2018, John Cochrane wrote:
"SGP is a sport designed to be exciting to watch. It is designed fo
spectat=
ors, not for participants. Well, it is designed for participants who wan
the fame of winning something in front of a lot of spectators, but it i
not
designed to be a wide-participation version of the sport, or for

participa
nts to enjoy cross country soaring. As such, it is quite sensible that SG

have a lot more crashes".

Wrong....The SGP is designed for both participants and spectators.

Please elaborate on why you think it is "is quite sensible that SGP
have a lot more crashes". What an absurd statement.

Let’s not confuse the format with the mountains.

Take the mountains out of the equation, why is it no less safe than
standard format comp?


Because the risk reward equation is different and that drives different
behaviours by encouraging the taking of more risk.

  #14  
Old February 7th 18, 04:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Matt Herron Jr.
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Posts: 548
Default SGP vs. Normal Racing

On Tuesday, February 6, 2018 at 9:30:12 AM UTC-8, Jim White wrote:
I have bailed out of the hard deck thread as I think that all opinions have
been aired once or maybe twice!

The hard deck discussion started out following the dreadful accident in
Chile and was an attempt to discuss making all competition safer.

However, when I think around the subject, isn't the real issue about the
use of the SGP format?

We have adopted and developed SGP in order to make the sport more exciting.
Not just for pilots but also the wider public who may find the racing more
interesting and might be encouraged to enter our sport.

I suggest that by doing SGP racing we have also made racing less safe
because the format fundamentally changes the risk / reward balance.

In normal racing if you were 3 minutes behind the leader you came in with
980 points instead of 1000 and could catch up the next day. In SGP 3
minutes could well mean 0 points and you are out of the game.

The question I raise is this: have we made gliding less safe by making it
more exciting, or have we made gliding more exciting by deciding to make it
less safe??

Anyone remember the 1975 film Rollerball?


The region 11 FAI contest in Truckee is adding a one day SGP in the middle of the contest this year. I will not be flying that part as I don't want to take that much risk. Too many gliders bunched up a the start. Gliders of very different performance levels thrown together. Pilots with very different skill levels. A finish at a busy airport (with a tower) where winds are unpredictable and microbursts are a little too common. No thanks.

  #15  
Old February 7th 18, 05:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Justin Craig[_3_]
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Posts: 65
Default SGP vs. Normal Racing

At 15:59 07 February 2018, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:

The region 11 FAI contest in Truckee is adding a one day SGP in the

middle
=
of the contest this year. I will not be flying that part as I don't want
t=
o take that much risk. Too many gliders bunched up a the start. Gliders
o=
f very different performance levels thrown together. Pilots with very
diff=
erent skill levels. A finish at a busy airport (with a tower) where

winds
=
are unpredictable and microbursts are a little too common. No thanks.



How many gliders in the region 11 comp?

  #16  
Old February 7th 18, 05:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default SGP vs. Normal Racing

I think the statement, "it is quite sensible" means that it is more
likely, given the format of the race compared to traditional sailplane
contests, to have more frequent incidents.Â* In that interpretation I
would not call it an "absurd" statement.


On 2/7/2018 6:14 AM, Justin Craig wrote:
At 18:45 06 February 2018, John Cochrane wrote:
"SGP is a sport designed to be exciting to watch. It is designed for
spectat=
ors, not for participants. Well, it is designed for participants who want
the fame of winning something in front of a lot of spectators, but it is
not
designed to be a wide-participation version of the sport, or for participa
nts to enjoy cross country soaring. As such,it is quite sensible that SGP

have a lot more crashes".

Wrong....The SGP is designed for both participants and spectators.

Please elaborate on why you think it is "is quite sensible that SGP
have a lot more crashes". What an absurd statement.

Let’s not confuse the format with the mountains.

Take the mountains out of the equation, why is it no less safe than a
standard format comp?



--
Dan, 5J

  #17  
Old February 7th 18, 06:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Cochrane[_3_]
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Posts: 351
Default SGP vs. Normal Racing

I'm signed up for Truckee and look forward to trying the format. (I also was strongly in favor of the late lamented last start time option so this would be easier in regular regionals.)

To clarify my previous comment, the FAI SGP was, if you read the documents, clearly designed to be interesting for spectators and media. The rewards for pilots are the glory of winning a high profile event, and wingtip to wingtip racing if you like that sort of thing, but you'll fly short tasks and won't get to explore much.

SGP lite events, such as Truckee, are quite different. Here the objective is to give pilots a bit more race feel without pushing the limits in many ways.

Regular races have this problem of sitting around at the start waiting for others to go first, missing a lot of the day, and the whole leeching and gaggling game. A grand-prix lite, or last start time, but combined with regular scoring not an inch is as good as a mile could make racing more fun.

John Cochrane
  #18  
Old February 7th 18, 06:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Justin Craig[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 65
Default SGP vs. Normal Racing

At 16:36 07 February 2018, Dan Marotta wrote:
I think the statement, "it is quite sensible" means that it is more
likely, given the format of the race compared to traditional sailplane
contests, to have more frequent incidents.Â* In that interpretation I
would not call it an "absurd" statement.


But my question is why do people feel there is / will be more accidents in
an SGP?

As mentioned already, take the mountains out of the equation.

The SGP is limited to 20 gliders. In a normal comp a class could have 50 or
so gliders. So the start / gaggeling is not the an issue.

I do not know hat, if any accidents there have been at SGP races outside of
the mountains?

When the format of the race is discussed, is that because its a floatilla
start? Lets be specific if having a reasoned debate.

The discussion started as "hard deck" and has moved on the SGP. These
threads started as a reult oftheSGP in Chile.

It would be interesting to know what proportion of those in these two
threads have flown an SGP.

From what I can tell, pilots that have love them. If they dont, they don't
have to go back.

The SGP is proving to be a real success in many ways and I think it would
be sad if a few "arm chair" pilots run them down in a public forum, without
having even competed in one.

  #19  
Old February 7th 18, 06:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default SGP vs. Normal Racing

SGP is wonderful for the sport of soaring. It is exciting to watch and draws non-pilot spectators, in theory. We need more sport promotion and a the SGP series is a format that is exciting for spectators and pilots. If it is not your cup of tea fine, many don't want to drag race gliders, but this is an opportunity to get corporate sponsors, TV deals, fans... If SGP could get a bit more media coverage I believe it could really grow in audience which will ultimately help the numbers in our sport grow!

As for SGP vs "Normal racing" why debate? You can fly as safe a contest as you want, be it SGP or not.

On Wednesday, February 7, 2018 at 9:15:06 AM UTC-8, Justin Craig wrote:
At 16:36 07 February 2018, Dan Marotta wrote:
I think the statement, "it is quite sensible" means that it is more
likely, given the format of the race compared to traditional sailplane
contests, to have more frequent incidents.Â* In that interpretation I
would not call it an "absurd" statement.


But my question is why do people feel there is / will be more accidents in
an SGP?

As mentioned already, take the mountains out of the equation.

The SGP is limited to 20 gliders. In a normal comp a class could have 50 or
so gliders. So the start / gaggeling is not the an issue.

I do not know hat, if any accidents there have been at SGP races outside of
the mountains?

When the format of the race is discussed, is that because its a floatilla
start? Lets be specific if having a reasoned debate.

The discussion started as "hard deck" and has moved on the SGP. These
threads started as a reult oftheSGP in Chile.

It would be interesting to know what proportion of those in these two
threads have flown an SGP.

From what I can tell, pilots that have love them. If they dont, they don't
have to go back.

The SGP is proving to be a real success in many ways and I think it would
be sad if a few "arm chair" pilots run them down in a public forum, without
having even competed in one.

  #20  
Old February 7th 18, 07:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,601
Default SGP vs. Normal Racing

Two things and then I'll try to stay out of this:

Racing is more dangerous than not racing.Â* Look at RATES not NUMBERS.Â*
Compare NASCAR racing to the daily commute.Â* Of course there are more
accidents in daily driving but the RATE is way higher in racing.Â* So
which is more dangerous?Â* Reading all the comments indicates to me that
a lot of proponents for more rules either just don't get it or they
simply want to have the last say in rule making.

Just because someone has a different opinion does not make him an
armchair pilot.Â* I've been flying gliders for over 30 years with over
550 hours just in the last two years.


On 2/7/2018 10:07 AM, Justin Craig wrote:
At 16:36 07 February 2018, Dan Marotta wrote:
I think the statement, "it is quite sensible" means that it is more
likely, given the format of the race compared to traditional sailplane
contests, to have more frequent incidents.ÂÂ* In that interpretation I
would not call it an "absurd" statement.

But my question is why do people feel there is / will be more accidents in
an SGP?

As mentioned already, take the mountains out of the equation.

The SGP is limited to 20 gliders. In a normal comp a class could have 50 or
so gliders. So the start / gaggeling is not the an issue.

I do not know hat, if any accidents there have been at SGP races outside of
the mountains?

When the format of the race is discussed, is that because its a floatilla
start? Lets be specific if having a reasoned debate.

The discussion started as "hard deck" and has moved on the SGP. These
threads started as a reult oftheSGP in Chile.

It would be interesting to know what proportion of those in these two
threads have flown an SGP.

From what I can tell, pilots that have love them. If they dont, they don't
have to go back.

The SGP is proving to be a real success in many ways and I think it would
be sad if a few "arm chair" pilots run them down in a public forum, without
having even competed in one.


--
Dan, 5J
 




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