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F-22 Comparison



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 29th 03, 01:25 AM
robert arndt
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Default F-22 Comparison

Data: F-22 Eurofighter Su-35
Raptor Typhoon Superflanker
Crew: 1 1 1
Engine: 2 P&W 2 Eurojet 2 Saturn
F-119 EJ200 AL-35F
35,000 20,250 28,218
lb each lb each lb each
Max Speed: Mach 1.70 Mach 2.0 Mach 2.35
Gun: 20mm GE 27mm Mauser 30mm GSh-30
M61A1 BK 27 linkless ----
Internal: 3 bays: N/A N/A
4 Sidewinder ---- ----
4 AIM-120A/ ---- ----
6 AIM-120C/ ---- ----
GBU-32 JDAM ---- ----
External: 4 hardpoints 13 hardpoints 12 hardpoints
5000 lb ord. ARM,ASRAAM,IRIS-T * 6 different AAMs
or fuel METEOR,STORM SHADOW, * 6 different ASMs
Features: Stealth (RAM KEPD350,ALARM,GBU-10/12 * various IR/LG/TVG
+ serrated 80% CF construction bombs
edges) * future anti-radar pod * anti-radiation
Supercruise: Yes Yes No
Radar: APG-77 CAPTOR Doppler Zhuk-PH+ rear NO12
Systems: HUD+ 4 LCDs Wide angle HUD HUD+ 3 LCDs
sidestick VTAS (Voice, Throttle, IRST
triplex FBW Stick) Helmet-mounted sight
Helmet-mounted sight quadraplex FBW
IRST ECM pods
DASS
ESM Pods
quadraplex FBW
*future FBL
Initial Order: 295 Units 148 Units None placed
  #2  
Old November 29th 03, 04:15 AM
Paul F Austin
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Posts: n/a
Default


"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
Data: F-22 Eurofighter Su-35
Raptor Typhoon Superflanker
Crew: 1 1 1
Engine: 2 P&W 2 Eurojet 2 Saturn
F-119 EJ200 AL-35F
35,000 20,250 28,218
lb each lb each lb each
Max Speed: Mach 1.70 Mach 2.0 Mach 2.35
Gun: 20mm GE 27mm Mauser 30mm GSh-30
M61A1 BK 27 linkless ----
Internal: 3 bays: N/A N/A
4 Sidewinder ---- ----
4 AIM-120A/ ---- ----
6 AIM-120C/ ---- ----
GBU-32 JDAM ---- ----
External: 4 hardpoints 13 hardpoints 12 hardpoints
5000 lb ord. ARM,ASRAAM,IRIS-T * 6 different AAMs
or fuel METEOR,STORM SHADOW, * 6 different ASMs
Features: Stealth (RAM KEPD350,ALARM,GBU-10/12 * various

IR/LG/TVG
+ serrated 80% CF construction bombs
edges) * future anti-radar pod * anti-radiation
Supercruise: Yes Yes No
Radar: APG-77 CAPTOR Doppler Zhuk-PH+ rear NO12
Systems: HUD+ 4 LCDs Wide angle HUD HUD+ 3 LCDs
sidestick VTAS (Voice, Throttle, IRST
triplex FBW Stick) Helmet-mounted

sight
Helmet-mounted sight quadraplex FBW
IRST ECM pods
DASS
ESM Pods
quadraplex FBW
*future FBL
Initial Order: 295 Units 148 Units None placed


That's a nice summary. You missed the Intraflight Datalinks (IDL) for the
F-22. That plays a big role in the F-22 CONOPS. Does Typhoon have that
facility? I know Grypen does.

Comparison of tankage would be helpful both internal and with external
tanks.


  #3  
Old November 29th 03, 08:20 AM
Scott Ferrin
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Posts: n/a
Default


Supercruise: Yes Yes No
Radar: APG-77 CAPTOR Doppler Zhuk-PH+ rear NO12
Systems: HUD+ 4 LCDs Wide angle HUD HUD+ 3 LCDs
sidestick VTAS (Voice, Throttle, IRST
triplex FBW Stick) Helmet-mounted

sight
Helmet-mounted sight quadraplex FBW
IRST ECM pods
DASS
ESM Pods
quadraplex FBW
*future FBL
Initial Order: 295 Units 148 Units None placed


That's a nice summary. You missed the Intraflight Datalinks (IDL) for the
F-22.



He also seems to have left out the ESM system which is quite elaborate
in the F-22. It can take an AMRAAM shot with it without even using
it's main radar. Also he was incorrect on the F-22's speed. The mach
1.7 he lists in in dry thrust and it wasn't even max military power.
Paul Metz stated on a Discovery special that the maximum speed of the
F-22 is classified but that it will go Mach 2.5. To quote him ". .
..it's fast, I mean it's REALLY fast. It's top speed is classifed but
it will do Mach 2.5" This suggests that the top speed in afterburner
is over Mach 2.5. Paul Metz is the chief test pilot of the F-22
program.


That plays a big role in the F-22 CONOPS. Does Typhoon have that
facility? I know Grypen does.

Comparison of tankage would be helpful both internal and with external
tanks.



I have no idea on the Typhoon. The Flanker's is somewhere between 19k
and 20k internal. I don't know what it can carry external. I don't
recall ever seeing one with external tanks. The F-22 at first was
said to have 23,000 internal but then later I saw that it was
something like 18,700lbs. Add the roughly 20,000lbs of four 600
gallon tanks and you get 38,700lb of fuel. Roughly double the
Flanker's fuel load. For comparison an F-15E (or I I guess too) has
something like 13,500 internal, 10k in the conformal tanks and 15k
more in three 600 gallon tanks for a total of about 38,500lbs.


Six different kinds of AAMs on the Flanker? What is that, the AA-10,
AA-11, AA-12 and what AA-8? What are the other 2? R-37 was
cancelled, That air to air Krypton looking thing is a paper design
AFAIK and the AAA-AE or whatever that two stage long range missile was
has never entered service either.
  #4  
Old November 29th 03, 09:32 AM
Ian Craig
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Paul F Austin" wrote in message
...

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
Data: F-22 Eurofighter Su-35
Raptor Typhoon Superflanker
Crew: 1 1 1
Engine: 2 P&W 2 Eurojet 2 Saturn
F-119 EJ200 AL-35F
35,000 20,250 28,218
lb each lb each lb each
Max Speed: Mach 1.70 Mach 2.0 Mach 2.35
Gun: 20mm GE 27mm Mauser 30mm GSh-30
M61A1 BK 27 linkless ----
Internal: 3 bays: N/A N/A
4 Sidewinder ---- ----
4 AIM-120A/ ---- ----
6 AIM-120C/ ---- ----
GBU-32 JDAM ---- ----
External: 4 hardpoints 13 hardpoints 12 hardpoints
5000 lb ord. ARM,ASRAAM,IRIS-T * 6 different

AAMs
or fuel METEOR,STORM SHADOW, * 6 different

ASMs
Features: Stealth (RAM KEPD350,ALARM,GBU-10/12 * various

IR/LG/TVG
+ serrated 80% CF construction bombs
edges) * future anti-radar pod * anti-radiation
Supercruise: Yes Yes No
Radar: APG-77 CAPTOR Doppler Zhuk-PH+ rear

NO12
Systems: HUD+ 4 LCDs Wide angle HUD HUD+ 3 LCDs
sidestick VTAS (Voice, Throttle, IRST
triplex FBW Stick) Helmet-mounted

sight
Helmet-mounted sight quadraplex FBW
IRST ECM pods
DASS
ESM Pods
quadraplex FBW
*future FBL
Initial Order: 295 Units 148 Units None placed


That's a nice summary. You missed the Intraflight Datalinks (IDL) for the
F-22. That plays a big role in the F-22 CONOPS. Does Typhoon have that
facility? I know Grypen does.

Typhoon does have a datalink capability.

There are also a lot more than 148 ordered (if the original orders go
through its over 600)

Comparison of tankage would be helpful both internal and with external
tanks.




  #5  
Old November 29th 03, 12:42 PM
Paul F Austin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Ian Craig" wrote in message
...

"Paul F Austin" wrote in message
...

"robert arndt" wrote in message
om...
Data: F-22 Eurofighter Su-35
Raptor Typhoon Superflanker
Crew: 1 1 1
Engine: 2 P&W 2 Eurojet 2 Saturn
F-119 EJ200 AL-35F
35,000 20,250 28,218
lb each lb each lb each
Max Speed: Mach 1.70 Mach 2.0 Mach 2.35
Gun: 20mm GE 27mm Mauser 30mm GSh-30
M61A1 BK 27 linkless ----
Internal: 3 bays: N/A N/A
4 Sidewinder ---- ----
4 AIM-120A/ ---- ----
6 AIM-120C/ ---- ----
GBU-32 JDAM ---- ----
External: 4 hardpoints 13 hardpoints 12 hardpoints
5000 lb ord. ARM,ASRAAM,IRIS-T * 6 different

AAMs
or fuel METEOR,STORM SHADOW, * 6 different

ASMs
Features: Stealth (RAM KEPD350,ALARM,GBU-10/12 * various

IR/LG/TVG
+ serrated 80% CF construction bombs
edges) * future anti-radar pod *

anti-radiation
Supercruise: Yes Yes No
Radar: APG-77 CAPTOR Doppler Zhuk-PH+ rear

NO12
Systems: HUD+ 4 LCDs Wide angle HUD HUD+ 3 LCDs
sidestick VTAS (Voice, Throttle, IRST
triplex FBW Stick) Helmet-mounted

sight
Helmet-mounted sight quadraplex FBW
IRST ECM pods
DASS
ESM Pods
quadraplex FBW
*future FBL
Initial Order: 295 Units 148 Units None placed


That's a nice summary. You missed the Intraflight Datalinks (IDL) for

the
F-22. That plays a big role in the F-22 CONOPS. Does Typhoon have that
facility? I know Grypen does.

Typhoon does have a datalink capability.


There's datalinks and datalinks. Saying Typhoon has one is like saying it
has wheels. IDL manages beam direction and radiated power and uses a covert
waveform to minimize probability of detection outside the local group. At
the same time, there's sensor fusion within the local group with sensor data
passed from AC to AC so that everyone sees what anyone sees.

If you want (more than you would believe) data links, go he
http://www.afceaeriecanal.org/AFRL.Minges.ppt for an overview of the web of
USAF links.


  #6  
Old November 29th 03, 05:24 PM
robert arndt
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Scott Ferrin wrote in message . ..
Supercruise: Yes Yes No
Radar: APG-77 CAPTOR Doppler Zhuk-PH+ rear NO12
Systems: HUD+ 4 LCDs Wide angle HUD HUD+ 3 LCDs
sidestick VTAS (Voice, Throttle, IRST
triplex FBW Stick) Helmet-mounted

sight
Helmet-mounted sight quadraplex FBW
IRST ECM pods
DASS
ESM Pods
quadraplex FBW
*future FBL
Initial Order: 295 Units 148 Units None placed


That's a nice summary. You missed the Intraflight Datalinks (IDL) for the
F-22.


Sorry, the miss is not intentional as this post is all about a basic
comparison using what information is verified at the time. The Typhoon
also has the MIDS datalink.


He also seems to have left out the ESM system which is quite elaborate
in the F-22. It can take an AMRAAM shot with it without even using
it's main radar. Also he was incorrect on the F-22's speed. The mach
1.7 he lists in in dry thrust and it wasn't even max military power.
Paul Metz stated on a Discovery special that the maximum speed of the
F-22 is classified but that it will go Mach 2.5. To quote him ". .
.it's fast, I mean it's REALLY fast. It's top speed is classifed but
it will do Mach 2.5" This suggests that the top speed in afterburner
is over Mach 2.5. Paul Metz is the chief test pilot of the F-22
program.


My Mach 1.7 figure is what is admitted right now, not the final speed
of the aircraft. Typhoon also is said to do Mach 2.2 but that remains
to be seen. As for the F-22 doing Mach 2.5 fully loaded- no chance.
Maybe a test aircraft but not a combat version. BTW, the F-22s ceiling
of 60,000 ft and range of 3,500 miles might be slightly off... but not
by much. I did not mention them however because they are not verified
nor admitted by Lockheed.


That plays a big role in the F-22 CONOPS. Does Typhoon have that
facility? I know Grypen does.

Comparison of tankage would be helpful both internal and with external
tanks.


This information, in reliable terms, is hard to come by... so I left it out.


I have no idea on the Typhoon. The Flanker's is somewhere between 19k
and 20k internal. I don't know what it can carry external. I don't
recall ever seeing one with external tanks. The F-22 at first was
said to have 23,000 internal but then later I saw that it was
something like 18,700lbs. Add the roughly 20,000lbs of four 600
gallon tanks and you get 38,700lb of fuel. Roughly double the
Flanker's fuel load. For comparison an F-15E (or I I guess too) has
something like 13,500 internal, 10k in the conformal tanks and 15k
more in three 600 gallon tanks for a total of about 38,500lbs.


Six different kinds of AAMs on the Flanker? What is that, the AA-10,
AA-11, AA-12 and what AA-8? What are the other 2? R-37 was
cancelled, That air to air Krypton looking thing is a paper design
AFAIK and the AAA-AE or whatever that two stage long range missile was
has never entered service either.


Flanker AAMs: R-27, R-40, R-60, R-73A, R-77, and KS-172.
Flanker ASMs: Kh-25ML, Kh-25MP, Kh-29, KH-31, KH-59, KH-65S.
Flanker LGBs: GBU-500, GBU-1500, plus TV guided versions.
Flanker AR: KH-15P


Rob
  #7  
Old November 29th 03, 09:22 PM
Scott Ferrin
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Posts: n/a
Default


My Mach 1.7 figure is what is admitted right now, not the final speed
of the aircraft. Typhoon also is said to do Mach 2.2 but that remains
to be seen. As for the F-22 doing Mach 2.5 fully loaded- no chance.



Flanker Mach 2.35 fully loaded? No chance. Where in your list did it
say those maximum speeds were fully loaded? Nowhere? That's what I
thought.
  #8  
Old November 29th 03, 09:27 PM
Scott Ferrin
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Posts: n/a
Default


Six different kinds of AAMs on the Flanker? What is that, the AA-10,
AA-11, AA-12 and what AA-8? What are the other 2? R-37 was
cancelled, That air to air Krypton looking thing is a paper design
AFAIK and the AAA-AE or whatever that two stage long range missile was
has never entered service either.


Flanker AAMs: R-27, R-40, R-60, R-73A, R-77, and KS-172.


KS-172 is a paper missile. No Flanker of any sort carries the R-40
(Do you know which one that is?) Come to think of it I've never seen
a picture of a Flanker carrying an R-40 nor read that it's armament
for the Flanker.







Flanker ASMs: Kh-25ML, Kh-25MP, Kh-29, KH-31, KH-59, KH-65S.
Flanker LGBs: GBU-500, GBU-1500, plus TV guided versions.
Flanker AR: KH-15P


Rob


  #9  
Old November 29th 03, 09:37 PM
Scott Ferrin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:27:59 GMT, Scott Ferrin
wrote:


Six different kinds of AAMs on the Flanker? What is that, the AA-10,
AA-11, AA-12 and what AA-8? What are the other 2? R-37 was
cancelled, That air to air Krypton looking thing is a paper design
AFAIK and the AAA-AE or whatever that two stage long range missile was
has never entered service either.


Flanker AAMs: R-27, R-40, R-60, R-73A, R-77, and KS-172.


KS-172 is a paper missile. No Flanker of any sort carries the R-40
(Do you know which one that is?) Come to think of it I've never seen
a picture of a Flanker carrying an R-40 nor read that it's armament
for the Flanker.


"Come to think of it I've never seen a picture of a Flanker carrying
an R-40 nor read that it's armament for the Flanker." I meant to say
R-60. In simpler terms: KS-172 is a paper missile, the Flanker has
NEVER carried the AA-6 Acrid, and I've never seen the AA-8 Aphid
listed as armament for the Flanker anywhere nor ever seen a picture of
the Flanker actually carrying it.

  #10  
Old November 30th 03, 09:25 AM
robert arndt
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Posts: n/a
Default

Scott Ferrin wrote in message . ..
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 20:27:59 GMT, Scott Ferrin
wrote:


Six different kinds of AAMs on the Flanker? What is that, the AA-10,
AA-11, AA-12 and what AA-8? What are the other 2? R-37 was
cancelled, That air to air Krypton looking thing is a paper design
AFAIK and the AAA-AE or whatever that two stage long range missile was
has never entered service either.

Flanker AAMs: R-27, R-40, R-60, R-73A, R-77, and KS-172.


KS-172 is a paper missile. No Flanker of any sort carries the R-40
(Do you know which one that is?) Come to think of it I've never seen
a picture of a Flanker carrying an R-40 nor read that it's armament
for the Flanker.


"Come to think of it I've never seen a picture of a Flanker carrying
an R-40 nor read that it's armament for the Flanker." I meant to say
R-60. In simpler terms: KS-172 is a paper missile, the Flanker has
NEVER carried the AA-6 Acrid, and I've never seen the AA-8 Aphid
listed as armament for the Flanker anywhere nor ever seen a picture of
the Flanker actually carrying it.


All the current armaments listed were for the Su-35 Superflanker:

http://iron-eagles.tripod.com/eb_ac_files/su35.htm

Rob
 




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