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Reducing collision hazard at contests



 
 
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  #41  
Old May 21st 18, 06:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Koerner
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

On Monday, May 21, 2018 at 10:12:47 AM UTC-7, Henning Pedersen wrote:
It is called a flarm. We have it all The Club planes and most of The private planes. (Øsf. Denmark)


Flarm is fantastic. It's widely adopted in the US now too. My own guess is that Flarm is preventing about half of the collisions at contests where everyone has it.

Doesn't that leave plenty enough collision hazard to motivate this discussion and plenty enough reason to continue trying to fix the problem?
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  #42  
Old May 21st 18, 07:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

When ever I see something about safety (really "how to survive feeding my Sailplane addiction) I usually read most of the posts until they go of subject.

In this case (while trying to rationalize hwy I am doing contests) I decided to google it.... "cause of glider accidents" just as a fact finding mission. Try it..... pretty interesting

http://www.airsailing.org/downloads/...ion%20R24B.pdf

I have a FLARM - a transponder - thinking about putting a stob into the vertical.... would probably paint the glider hot pink if some one proved it avoided a collision

The question is " will rule changes add significantly to safety, REALLY - or get us to the point where the sport is no longer enjoyable" - I know this is a very serious subject and even one collision is one to many - but - many of the suggestions seriously affect the core concepts of the sport and make an already difficult sport to score and follow, even harder.

The newest concept in Sailplane racing "Grand Prix" is in a totally different direction from most of the posts I have read in this thread.

Seems to me to be a measure twice cut once issue - the unintended consequences need to be thought about.

WH

  #43  
Old May 21st 18, 08:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
andrzop
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

On Monday, May 21, 2018 at 19:47:15 UTC+2, Steve Koerner wrote:

Flarm is fantastic. ...



Really? In recent years collided only gliders equipped with Flarm. Whether the global number of collisions has decreased in comparison to the period before Flarm? Flarm causes gaggles and causes a false belief that the pilot is safe.
  #44  
Old May 21st 18, 09:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Koerner
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

On Monday, May 21, 2018 at 11:31:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
When ever I see something about safety (really "how to survive feeding my Sailplane addiction) I usually read most of the posts until they go of subject.

In this case (while trying to rationalize hwy I am doing contests) I decided to google it.... "cause of glider accidents" just as a fact finding mission. Try it..... pretty interesting

http://www.airsailing.org/downloads/...ion%20R24B.pdf

I have a FLARM - a transponder - thinking about putting a stob into the vertical.... would probably paint the glider hot pink if some one proved it avoided a collision

The question is " will rule changes add significantly to safety, REALLY - or get us to the point where the sport is no longer enjoyable" - I know this is a very serious subject and even one collision is one to many - but - many of the suggestions seriously affect the core concepts of the sport and make an already difficult sport to score and follow, even harder.

The newest concept in Sailplane racing "Grand Prix" is in a totally different direction from most of the posts I have read in this thread.

Seems to me to be a measure twice cut once issue - the unintended consequences need to be thought about.

WH


Hey WH: Like you, I keep a bucket of cold water at hand for new rule ideas that come up on RAS -- most are not good ideas. But surely you'll agree that every now and then it's possible that an idea might arise that is sensible. So let's be specific here, if that is possible. Please reread Alex's May 16 post and my May 19 post above and think on whether or not that particular suggestion might be worthwhile for contest safety and whether that suggestion would damage enjoyment. For myself, I think playing start gate roulette and flying in huge gaggles is not really so enjoyable that it deserves to be preserved in the sport on that basis.
  #45  
Old May 22nd 18, 01:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

I do agree and that is why I read RAS - sometimes good ideas and things to ponder come up - and I am not against new rules to make flying safer and new gadgets to let me see other flying objects and they see me

I think pondering ideas is good - but many times what seems ok on paper, in practice does not get the result hoped for. Sorry I am not usually the cold water LOL

I also think start gate timing can be hazardous and gaggle flying increases risk and is boring. (we are after all in the US where independence is supposed to be rewarded) - it is a complicated issue to solve.

If you give start times - some pilots will get a huge advantage - they got a climb at the right time - their time was at the best time of day...... separate everyone by 2 minutes and at Sr's in FL takes 2 hours+ to get everyone on task. I think that is a problem and I am not so sure it stops glider from forming gaggles (although smaller).

One of the Soaring 101 things to do in a contest the books/mentors all say, is to use your eyes looking for other gliders circling and to see the best line to run. If you get a penalty for reaching a few circling gliders and then joining the thermal - or running a line only to find out you catch up for a few gliders..... doesn't that fundamentally change the nature of the sport?

I thought the whole TAT type task was made to try to create separation - (I am fairly new to Soaring) - and I think there are those pilots that believe TAT tasks changed the nature of the sport. (I like TAT's MAT's AT's by the way)

I guess all I am saying really is that I would love to read about a idea - then some day read about how it was tried at a local/small contest so there could be some science behind a rule change.

I am fine with rule changes as long as they get the intended result and not so many unintended problems.

My ideas -
1. Incentivize leaving early - why not a bonus for finishing first to return. or maybe the first 3 to return.
2. Don't devalue days. All devaluing does make week days have less incentive to start early, start alone or start at all.

I think I like positive feedback better than penalties

My .02

WH
  #46  
Old May 22nd 18, 03:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

The solution is simple. Use the rules for the sailplane race at the World Air Games in Dubai. Or copy the old skydiving blade running canopy competitions and put air race pylons down a mountain. Be better for spectators. Everyone cares about that, right? If we want to race using columns of God's energy we are going to have gliders in the same place, no matter how thick the rule book gets.
  #47  
Old May 22nd 18, 03:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ron Gleason
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Default Reducing collision hazard at contests

On Tuesday, 22 May 2018 06:21:30 UTC-6, wrote:
I do agree and that is why I read RAS - sometimes good ideas and things to ponder come up - and I am not against new rules to make flying safer and new gadgets to let me see other flying objects and they see me

I think pondering ideas is good - but many times what seems ok on paper, in practice does not get the result hoped for. Sorry I am not usually the cold water LOL

I also think start gate timing can be hazardous and gaggle flying increases risk and is boring. (we are after all in the US where independence is supposed to be rewarded) - it is a complicated issue to solve.

If you give start times - some pilots will get a huge advantage - they got a climb at the right time - their time was at the best time of day...... separate everyone by 2 minutes and at Sr's in FL takes 2 hours+ to get everyone on task. I think that is a problem and I am not so sure it stops glider from forming gaggles (although smaller).

One of the Soaring 101 things to do in a contest the books/mentors all say, is to use your eyes looking for other gliders circling and to see the best line to run. If you get a penalty for reaching a few circling gliders and then joining the thermal - or running a line only to find out you catch up for a few gliders..... doesn't that fundamentally change the nature of the sport?

I thought the whole TAT type task was made to try to create separation - (I am fairly new to Soaring) - and I think there are those pilots that believe TAT tasks changed the nature of the sport. (I like TAT's MAT's AT's by the way)

I guess all I am saying really is that I would love to read about a idea - then some day read about how it was tried at a local/small contest so there could be some science behind a rule change.

I am fine with rule changes as long as they get the intended result and not so many unintended problems.

My ideas -
1. Incentivize leaving early - why not a bonus for finishing first to return. or maybe the first 3 to return.
2. Don't devalue days. All devaluing does make week days have less incentive to start early, start alone or start at all.

I think I like positive feedback better than penalties

My .02

WH


IMO we should look at the hang glider and para glider folks and some concepts they have implemented to address some of these issues

- for starts, a entry cylinder versus a exit cylinder. First leg is 50 miles long, you can define the start ENTRY cylinder centered on the first TP with diameter of 45 miles. This allows folks to spread out along the radius of the cylinder and start when the ENTER the cylinder. May not work well with performance of gliders as the early launchers can really have a better shot at a better starting position.

- leading points. For folks that take the chance and go early and lead out you get rewarded. Many calculations and things to consider

a few more that can be found in this document, if you are so inclined, https://flafly63.files.wordpress.com...l-gap-v1-1.pdf

Ron Gleason
 




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