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Manufacturing Quality



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 5th 06, 02:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
john smith
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Posts: 1,446
Default Manufacturing Quality

With the news that Piper will produce the Hondajet, I am wondering if
Piper will be able to produce the finished product to meet Honda's
quality standards.
Piper has not built anything bigger than a Malibu for 20 years.
The Cheyenne IV/LS-400 was the biggest aircraft Piper has produced.
  #2  
Old August 5th 06, 02:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Matt Whiting
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Posts: 2,232
Default Manufacturing Quality

john smith wrote:

With the news that Piper will produce the Hondajet, I am wondering if
Piper will be able to produce the finished product to meet Honda's
quality standards.
Piper has not built anything bigger than a Malibu for 20 years.
The Cheyenne IV/LS-400 was the biggest aircraft Piper has produced.


I don't see why not. Americans at the Honda plants in Ohio produce cars
and motorcycles to Honda quality standards. And, based on my experience
with an 84 Honda Accord, purchased new, those standards aren't all that
high. The engine failed at 80,000 miles. Haven't owned a Honda product
since.


Matt
  #3  
Old August 5th 06, 03:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jose[_1_]
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Posts: 1,632
Default Manufacturing Quality

And, based on my experience with an 84 Honda Accord, purchased new, those standards aren't all that high. The engine failed at 80,000 miles.

There were some early Honda engines that required high octane gas, and
would fail when fed a diet of regular. Was this perhaps one of them?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #4  
Old August 5th 06, 04:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Kyle Boatright
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Posts: 578
Default Manufacturing Quality


"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
john smith wrote:

With the news that Piper will produce the Hondajet, I am wondering if
Piper will be able to produce the finished product to meet Honda's
quality standards.
Piper has not built anything bigger than a Malibu for 20 years.
The Cheyenne IV/LS-400 was the biggest aircraft Piper has produced.


I don't see why not. Americans at the Honda plants in Ohio produce cars
and motorcycles to Honda quality standards. And, based on my experience
with an 84 Honda Accord, purchased new, those standards aren't all that
high. The engine failed at 80,000 miles. Haven't owned a Honda product
since.


Matt


That's a rare case. What was the failure? I know of plenty of people who put
many, many miles on 80's vintage Accords with excellent reliability.

My current Accord has 217k miles and has had zero powertrain issues. No
engine work other than replacing the timing belt every 105k miles. No CV
work. No tranny work, and it even has the original clutch.

Since the late 70's, Hondas and Toyotas have been about as reliabile as
hammers.

KB


  #5  
Old August 5th 06, 05:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Larry Dighera
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,953
Default Manufacturing Quality

On Sat, 05 Aug 2006 13:27:12 GMT, john smith wrote in
:

With the news that Piper will produce the Hondajet,


Where did you get the idea that Piper will be doing production work
for Honda?

From Honda's statement below, it appears Piper will be doing only
sales and service, and perhaps some engineering.




http://corporate.honda.com/press/art...=2006072535888
07.25.06
Honda to Begin Sales of Very Light Jet - 'HondaJet'
Honda and Piper Aircraft to Form New Business Alliance

Honda today announced plans to enter the innovative HondaJet in the
growing very light jet market, with the process of accepting sales
orders expected to begin in the U.S. in fall 2006. Toward this goal,
Honda will establish a new U.S. company to hold FAA type certification
and production certification. Honda's goal is to complete type
certification in about 3-4 years, followed by the start of production
in the U.S.

Making the announcement at the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA)
AirVenture 2006, the world's largest annual aviation gathering, Honda
also revealed plans to form a business alliance with Piper Aircraft,
Inc. to collaborate on sales and service, and to explore opportunities
in engineering and other areas within general and business aviation.

Honda and Piper will provide a new level of sales and service to meet
the needs of jet customers with the goal of setting a higher standard
for the quality of the ownership experience. No specific details
regarding additional collaboration were announced.

"Aviation has been an important dream of Honda for more than four
decades," said Satoshi Toshida, senior managing director of Honda
Motor Co., Ltd. "Our goal is consistent with the philosophy of other
Honda products -- to provide convenient and efficient transportation
that will make people's lives better. We are excited now to enter a
new dimension of mobility."

"In Piper we believe we have a partner we can collaborate with in our
effort to bring new value to customers in the very light jet market,"
said Toshida.

"Honda is a company with a rich heritage of bringing high quality,
innovative products to market," said James K. Bass, president and CEO
of Piper Aircraft, Inc. "This business alliance is a perfect fit given
the commitment both Piper and Honda have to providing our respective
customers with world class products and services. Piper is very
excited about this alliance and the way it complements our vision for
the future."

HondaJet features several innovations that help it achieve far better
fuel efficiency, larger cabin and luggage space and higher cruise
speed than conventional aircraft in its class. The announcement to
commercialize HondaJet comes one year after the plane made its world
public debut at EAA AirVenture 2005 in Oshkosh, Wis.

The result of 20 years of aviation research, key HondaJet innovations
include a patented over-the-wing engine-mount configuration, a
natural-laminar flow (NLF) wing and fuselage nose, and an advanced
all-composite fuselage structure.

"We want to create new value within the aviation market through the
unique new design of HondaJet," said Michimasa Fujino, HondaJet
project leader and vice president of Honda R&D Americas, Inc. "Our
goal is to deliver three key attributes - performance, quality and
comfort - beyond what people currently expect from light business
jets."

HondaJet's NLF wing and NLF fuselage nose were developed through
extensive analyses and wind-tunnel testing. These designs help
HondaJet achieve low drag. HondaJet's patented over-the-wing
engine-mount configuration helps eliminate the need for a structure to
mount the engines to the rear fuselage, maximizing space in the
fuselage for passengers and luggage. Further, by determining the
optimal position for the engines, the over-the-wing mount actually
reduces drag at high speed to improve fuel efficiency.

The advanced all-composite fuselage structure consists of a
combination of honeycomb sandwich structure and co-cured stiffened
panels. It was developed to reduce weight and manufacturing costs.
This aircraft is also outfitted with a state-of-the-art all-glass
flight deck with an integrated avionics system that displays all
information digitally on a high resolution flat display, and also has
an autopilot function.

To date the prototype six-to-seven seat HondaJet has completed more
than 240 hours of flight-testing since December 2003. So far, the
prototype HondaJet has achieved an altitude of 43,000 feet and a speed
of 412 knots and is on course to meet or exceed all of its design
specifications.

Piper Aircraft, Inc., headquartered in Vero Beach, Fla., is the only
general aviation manufacturer to offer a complete line of aircraft for
every general aviation mission, from trainers and high-performance
aircraft for personal and business use to turbine-powered business
aircraft. In its 70-year history, Piper has produced more than 144,000
aircraft and developed more than 180 different models. Piper covers
the global marketplace with 80 sales and service centers worldwide.

Honda is one of the world's leading producers of mobility products
including its diverse line-up of automobiles, motorcycles and ATVs,
power products, marine engines and personal watercraft. Honda is the
world's preeminent engine-maker, with annual worldwide production of
more than 20 million engines. On a global basis, Honda has more than
130 manufacturing facilities in 29 nations.

Honda began operations in North America in 1959 with the establishment
of American Honda Motor Co., Inc., Honda's first overseas subsidiary.
Honda began assembling motorcycles in America in 1979, with U.S.
automobile manufacturing starting in 1982. Honda now employs more than
28,000 Americans in the design, manufacture and marketing of its
products in America. Honda currently builds products in 13
manufacturing plants in North America, with three major R&D centers in
the U.S.

For more information, and for access to HondaJet photography and video
footage, please go to hondanews.com. For additional information on
HondaJet, please go to world.honda.com/hondajet.

HondaJet Backgrounder

Background:

The HondaJet is an advanced, lightweight, compact very light jet (VLJ)
that features pioneering wing and engine mount designs that have
helped achieve far better fuel efficiency, more available cabin and
luggage space, and higher cruise speed than conventional aircraft in
its class.



HondaJet Innovation:

A natural-laminar flow (NLF) wing and NLF fuselage nose were developed
through extensive analyses and wind tunnel testing - these designs
help achieve low drag at high speed together with a high lift
coefficient.
A patented over-the-wing engine-mount configuration was developed.
This design strategy eliminated the need for a structure to mount the
engines to the rear fuselage and, thus, maximizes cabin and luggage
space in the fuselage. The configuration is also expected to reduce
noise in the cabin. Further, by determining the optimal position for
the engines, the over-the-wing mount actually reduces drag at high
speed to improve fuel efficiency.
An advanced all-composite fuselage structure, consisting of a
combination of honeycomb sandwich structure and co-cured stiffened
panels, was developed to reduce weight and manufacturing costs.


Milestone Achievements:

HondaJet was designed and developed from the ground up by Honda in the
U.S. and Japan. Research work that led to the creation of HondaJet
began in 1986. The plane was constructed by Honda R&D Americas in
North Carolina and all flight tests have been conducted in the U.S..

Major ground tests such as structural proof tests, control-system
proof test, system function tests and ground vibration tests were
completed by December 2003.
HondaJet has recorded more than 240 flight hours through July 2006
HondaJet has achieved an altitude of 43,000 feet and a speed of 412
knots


Basic Design Specifications:

Following are the basic specification of the prototype HondaJet
design:

Seating 6-7 (2 crew + 5 passengers -or- 1 pilot + 6 passengers)
Maximum Speed 778 km/hr (420 knots)
Engine HF-118 Turbofan Engine - x 2
Length x Width x Height 12.67 x 12.2 x 4.1 m (41.6 x 39.9 x 13.2 ft)
Operational Ceiling 12,497 m (41,000 ft)
Range 2,037 km (1,100 nm)


Honda Aviation - A Brief History
1986: Honda begins research in Japan on both small aircraft and jet
engines.

1993: Honda begins research on composite body aircraft with
Mississippi State University (MSU), leading to development of aircraft
called "MH-02" that is jointly fabricated and tested by Honda and MSU.
Research continues until 1996.

1995: Honda begins high altitude testing of its first generation
turbofan engine, HFX-01, conducting more than 70hours of tests through
1996.

1999: Development begins of the HF118 turbofan jet engine in the 1,000
to 3,500-pound thrust class. Compact, lightweight, low emission, fuel
efficient.

2000: Honda R&D Americas establishes a research facility at Piedmont
Triad International Airport in North Carolina in October 2000 for the
purpose of researching, fabricating and flight testing of HondaJet.

2002: Honda conducts high altitude tests of the HF118 engine starting
in June 2002. Honda publishes and reports its first technical paper in
June 2002 concerning technological achievements of the new airframe.
Honda continues publishing technical papers, with the most recent
paper in June 2005.

2003: HondaJet takes first test flight, December 3, 2003. Honda makes
first public announcement of the achievement days later.

2004: Honda and GE Aviation announce February 16, 2004, an alliance to
commercialize the HF 118 engine, and establish a joint venture,
GE-Honda Aero Engines, LLC, in October 2004, to pursue the
development, production and sales of Honda's HF118 turbofan engine in
the light business jet market.

In July 2004, Honda establishes Honda Aero, Inc. to manage its
aircraft engine business in the U.S. and the Wako Nishi R&D Center in
Japan to research and develop turbofan jet and piston aviation
engines.



2005: HondaJet makes its public "world debut" at the EAA AirVenture
2005 in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, July 28, 2005.



2006: Honda announces that it will commercialize HondaJet at the EAA
AirVenture 2006 in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, July 25, 2006.






©2006 American Honda Motor Co., Inc. All information contained herein
applies to U.S. vehicles only.
Please see our Privacy Policy and Legal Terms and Conditions. Visit
Honda.com.
site map

  #6  
Old August 5th 06, 07:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Matt Whiting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,232
Default Manufacturing Quality

Jose wrote:
And, based on my experience with an 84 Honda Accord, purchased new,
those standards aren't all that high. The engine failed at 80,000 miles.



There were some early Honda engines that required high octane gas, and
would fail when fed a diet of regular. Was this perhaps one of them?


I don't think so. The failure was of the cam and rocker arms. It
appeared to be either a lubrication failure or a metallurgy failure of
either the cam or rockers, possibly due to improper heat treatment.
Honda showed no interest in finding out what happened and absolutely no
interest in standing behind their product. Yes, it was out of warranty,
however, this certainly wasn't a normal failure mode for an engine,
especially one maintained well. I used Mobil 1 and changed the oil at
5,000 miles. This is the only car I've owned in 30 years that has ever
had a catastrophic engine failure (not counting things like water
pumps). I thought Honda might meet me half way and at least offer to
cover parts. Not only didn't they do that, but there response to my
letter was to accuse me of failing to maintain the car properly. After
I sent them copies of my logbook (20 or so pages as I recall), they
replied back saying they couldn't see any obvious deficiency in the
maintenance, but then stuck their foot in their mouth even deeper and
said that 80,000 miles was within the nominal expected service life of a
Honda engine. Since 80,000 isn't even close to my expectations for a
well maintained engine, I've since bought vehicles from folks with
higher standards.

Matt
  #7  
Old August 5th 06, 07:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Matt Whiting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,232
Default Manufacturing Quality

Kyle Boatright wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

john smith wrote:


With the news that Piper will produce the Hondajet, I am wondering if
Piper will be able to produce the finished product to meet Honda's
quality standards.
Piper has not built anything bigger than a Malibu for 20 years.
The Cheyenne IV/LS-400 was the biggest aircraft Piper has produced.


I don't see why not. Americans at the Honda plants in Ohio produce cars
and motorcycles to Honda quality standards. And, based on my experience
with an 84 Honda Accord, purchased new, those standards aren't all that
high. The engine failed at 80,000 miles. Haven't owned a Honda product
since.


Matt



That's a rare case. What was the failure? I know of plenty of people who put
many, many miles on 80's vintage Accords with excellent reliability.


I agree. It problem was a random manufacturing defect. The reason I
won't own a Honda again isn't the failure, it is due to Honda's response
to the failure (see a post I just made). Accusing your customer of
neglect in response to an unreasonable failure of your product, is
simply stupid and I refuse to buy products from a stupid manufacturer.
There are just too many choices today to have to do that.

Matt
  #8  
Old August 5th 06, 07:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Matt Whiting
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,232
Default Manufacturing Quality

Kyle Boatright wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

john smith wrote:


With the news that Piper will produce the Hondajet, I am wondering if
Piper will be able to produce the finished product to meet Honda's
quality standards.
Piper has not built anything bigger than a Malibu for 20 years.
The Cheyenne IV/LS-400 was the biggest aircraft Piper has produced.


I don't see why not. Americans at the Honda plants in Ohio produce cars
and motorcycles to Honda quality standards. And, based on my experience
with an 84 Honda Accord, purchased new, those standards aren't all that
high. The engine failed at 80,000 miles. Haven't owned a Honda product
since.


Matt



That's a rare case. What was the failure? I know of plenty of people who put
many, many miles on 80's vintage Accords with excellent reliability.


I agree. It probably was a random manufacturing defect. The reason I
won't own a Honda again isn't the failure, it is due to Honda's response
to the failure (see a post I just made). Accusing your customer of
neglect in response to an unreasonable failure of your product, is
simply stupid and I refuse to buy products from a stupid manufacturer.
There are just too many choices today to have to do that.

Matt
  #9  
Old August 5th 06, 08:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Skywise
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 140
Default Manufacturing Quality

Matt Whiting wrote in
:

Kyle Boatright wrote:

Snipola

That's a rare case. What was the failure? I know of plenty of people
who put many, many miles on 80's vintage Accords with excellent
reliability.


I agree. It problem was a random manufacturing defect. The reason I
won't own a Honda again isn't the failure, it is due to Honda's response
to the failure (see a post I just made). Accusing your customer of
neglect in response to an unreasonable failure of your product, is
simply stupid and I refuse to buy products from a stupid manufacturer.
There are just too many choices today to have to do that.


There've been a few business relationships I've terminated
due not to the severity of the problem, but due to the
failure upon the company's customer service folks to even
comprehend the slightest detail of said problem.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?
  #10  
Old August 5th 06, 08:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jon Kraus
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 194
Default Manufacturing Quality

The reason you express for never buying a Honda again is the same as
mine for never buying another Ford product. Ford was in my family for
years and years. I grew up in Michigan (south of Detroit) and my family
was totally immersed in the auto industry. My father was a manager at
Ford for 36 years and we NEVER drove anything but Fords.

My wife however liked Toyota Camry's (much to my chagrin) and couldn't
be talked into buying an American car brand. That is until one day when
her Camry was starting to show some signs of wear at 175,000 miles and I
decided to purchase 2 brand new Ford vehicles. She went along with it
although skeptical. She ended up being right.... Her car (a Mercury
Mystique or Mistake as she called it) broke down several times. It was
in warrantee so Ford fixed it at no charge.

She got tired of dealing with the car so we put it up for sale and she
bought another used Camry. The Mystique's air-conditioning broke down
(just by sitting in our driveway) and the car was only a thousand or two
miles out of warrantee.

I went through the red tape and jumped through the hoops that Ford makes
you go though only to have them deny my claim and not do anything for
me. I paid for the repairs and wrote them a letter stating my
disappointment and how I would never buy one of their products again. Of
course I received no response.

I've since purchased a used Honda Accord and happily put over 120k on it
with nary an issue. When this on goes TU I'll buy another one.

So now my wife and I drive Japanese cars (but they are built here) and
are totally happy with them. The frosting on the cake for me was that I
see where Toyota just took over second place from Ford in US car sales.
What is Fords response? To hire some expensive PR firm to prop their
sagging image. They are clueless that in this day of $3.00 a gallon gas
they need to build a better car and getaway from the sugar-tit that is
the big SUV and pickup truck. Heck, I see that Honda is now making a
better full-size pickup truck than Ford's F-150. Ford though they would
never see the day when that happened.

Oh yea.... to keep this airplane related and avoid the dreaded OT in the
subject.... I drive old Japanese cars so I can own and fly my Mooney!! :-)

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ UMP




Matt Whiting wrote:

Kyle Boatright wrote:

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

john smith wrote:


With the news that Piper will produce the Hondajet, I am wondering
if Piper will be able to produce the finished product to meet
Honda's quality standards.
Piper has not built anything bigger than a Malibu for 20 years.
The Cheyenne IV/LS-400 was the biggest aircraft Piper has produced.


I don't see why not. Americans at the Honda plants in Ohio produce
cars and motorcycles to Honda quality standards. And, based on my
experience with an 84 Honda Accord, purchased new, those standards
aren't all that high. The engine failed at 80,000 miles. Haven't
owned a Honda product since.


Matt




That's a rare case. What was the failure? I know of plenty of people
who put many, many miles on 80's vintage Accords with excellent
reliability.



I agree. It problem was a random manufacturing defect. The reason I
won't own a Honda again isn't the failure, it is due to Honda's response
to the failure (see a post I just made). Accusing your customer of
neglect in response to an unreasonable failure of your product, is
simply stupid and I refuse to buy products from a stupid manufacturer.
There are just too many choices today to have to do that.

Matt

 




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