Decommissioning of TIS stations

You're both wrong. There are about 100 "terminal" Mode S radars used by
TRACON's and 25 "enroute" Mode S radars used by the centers. TIS is a
software modification to the terminal Mode S radars only to allow them
to uplink traffic over the Mode S datalink that the radars have. They
only use the surveillance within the individual sensor - no inputs from
other radars.

The enroute radars were not modified due to the low scan rate - only
every 12 seconds vs 4.7 seconds for the terminal radars.

And the shutting down of some Mode S sites has to do with replacement by
the new ASR-11 radar. It's a digital monopulse radar from Raytheon, but
not equipped with Mode S. These radars are required for the new STARS
automation (controller display) system going into some TRACONs.

Newps wrote:


Thomas Borchert wrote:

Gerry,


TIS is entirely Mode S based. It uses Mode S as a source to identify
the traffic near you and Mode S datalink service to uplink the data
to your aircraft.



Uhm, not quite, AFAIK. It does use Mode S datalink for the uplink, but
all traffic information is derived from center radar data.


None of the info is derived from the Center. Center doesn't have mode S
equipment. Only approach controls have mode S. A center may use an
approach controls mode S radar, that happens with Salt Lake and our
radar here at Billings.

Tailwind wrote:


And the shutting down of some Mode S sites has to do with replacement by
the new ASR-11 radar. It's a digital monopulse radar from Raytheon, but
not equipped with Mode S. These radars are required for the new STARS
automation (controller display) system going into some TRACONs.

We have an ASR-11 and our mode S and TIS is fully functioning.

In article hGlue.2105$HU.168@trnddc03, Tailwind
wrote:

And the shutting down of some Mode S sites has to do with replacement by
the new ASR-11 radar. It's a digital monopulse radar from Raytheon, but
not equipped with Mode S. These radars are required for the new STARS
automation (controller display) system going into some TRACONs.

one correction: STARS does not require an ASR-11.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

Tailwind wrote:

And the shutting down of some Mode S sites has to do with replacement by
the new ASR-11 radar. It's a digital monopulse radar from Raytheon, but
not equipped with Mode S. These radars are required for the new STARS
automation (controller display) system going into some TRACONs.

(sorry Newps, hopping off your post to reply to this one, as his post is
missing from my news server.)

Tailwind, I fly out of Syracuse, NY, a class C airport that was one of the
first STARS installations. TIS is fully functional here.

--
Peter
























----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Bob Noel wrote:

Tailwind
wrote:

And the shutting down of some Mode S sites has to do with replacement by
the new ASR-11 radar. It's a digital monopulse radar from Raytheon, but
not equipped with Mode S. These radars are required for the new STARS
automation (controller display) system going into some TRACONs.

one correction: STARS does not require an ASR-11.

As confirmed by the approach facility at Syracuse, NY, a class C airport
that was one of the first STARs installations that also has a fully
operating TIS.

--
Peter
























----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Newps wrote:
We have an ASR-11 and our mode S and TIS is fully functioning.

Interesting. According to my avionics rep, who spoke today with his
Garmin rep:

= I just had a long talk with my Garmin rep. Here is what they have
= been told. The FAA is upgrading some of the ATC facility terminal
= radar from ARTS8 to ARTS11 systems (model numbers may be wrong,
= I think that is what he said). In any event, when the older ARTS8
= were being speced, the FAA wrote into the spec the ARTS8 must be
= TIS compliant. The contactor building the ARTS8 designed TIS into
= the system, and all was right with the world....

= When the new ARTS11 spec was written the FAA either forgot to add
= the TIS requirement, or thought no one was using it and omitted
= it intentionally. So you had the ARTS11 system designed without
= the TIS feature. So.... As the older systems were replaced by
= the newer systems, TIS got lost.

= My Garmin rep said the majority (of the 22 lost TIS sites) were
= the North West USA, one in Minnesota (or Michigan), one in Maine.
= He did not remember any in our area [Ed Note: NY/NJ/PA]. I asked
= him if this was the impending death of TIS, and he did not know.
= He did say the FAA was working off some bad data that was showing
= almost no one was using TIS. Garmin did compile data and sent
= to them on 330 sales (about 10k 330's to date). So we will see...

So, there you have it. If you say you have an ARTS11 system and TIS is
functioning, someone is lying about the reason behind the
decomissioning. I call for a hanging. All in favor?

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

"Doug Vetter" wrote in message
...
Newps wrote:
We have an ASR-11 and our mode S and TIS is fully functioning.

Interesting. According to my avionics rep, who spoke today with his
Garmin rep:

= My Garmin rep said the majority (of the 22 lost TIS sites) were
= the North West USA, one in Minnesota (or Michigan), one in Maine.
= He did not remember any in our area [Ed Note: NY/NJ/PA]. I asked
= him if this was the impending death of TIS, and he did not know.
= He did say the FAA was working off some bad data that was showing
= almost no one was using TIS. Garmin did compile data and sent
= to them on 330 sales (about 10k 330's to date). So we will see...

So, there you have it. If you say you have an ARTS11 system and TIS is
functioning, someone is lying about the reason behind the
decomissioning. I call for a hanging. All in favor?

Normally I'd be in favor (use piano wire), but because the Billings site is
operational doesn't mean others were not decommissioned.

Bob Noel wrote:
one correction: STARS does not require an ASR-11.

This is actually correct, based on some new information I receieved from
my avionics rep today, who spent the better part of the morning calling
around the FAA to figure out what is going on with TIS.

Here's the story:

The FAA has ASR7, 8, and 9 systems deployed. Philadelphia, for example,
which was the site of the first fully-operational STARS system utilizes
mode-s via an ASR9.

Right now there are 125 TIS sites, of which 22 are based on older ASR7
and 8. Those sites are slated to be upgraded to ASR11, but here's the
kicker -- while the ASR11 was designed and tested to support mode-s and
TIS, the 22 site upgrades will be deployed withOUT either feature.

The FAA planned to implement what they called the "Leapfrog Program", in
which they expected to relocate a number of the older (though mode-s
capable) ASR7 and 8 sites to other sites that presently lack mode-s
support. This would have decreased the net loss of sites. Ironically,
the closest radar site to the FAA Technical Center where all this
technology is engineered and evaluated (Atlantic City) is presently
running a non mode-s site and would have benefitted from the Leapfrog
Program (so much for being close to home base, right?). Unfortunately,
the group responsible for funding the mode-s deployment in OK City
killed the budget for the Leapfrog Program, thus the older sites will be
mothballed instead.

So, dare we ask, why is the FAA deploying ASR11 without mode-s? Two
reasons: someone in the FAA budget office had bad data that indicated
no one was using mode-s or TIS, and lacking user support, they decided
to buy the radars without the mode-s option to save money. If there is
any saving grace to this, however, it's that the ASR11's being installed
can be upgraded with mode-s and TIS at a later date. Assuming we are
successful at communicating to the FAA that TIS is presently in use by
more than 10000 aircraft, the question of when the sites will be
upgraded is likely to be decided in the budget office.

A guy at the tech center commented that TIS was a simple and inexpensive
program. It's essentially a software adjunct to the radar site, picking
off data from the radar, processing it to account for the radar sweep
delay, and sending it via datalink to the airborne component. The
technical guys loved the idea of TIS, because it would give
pilots/owners an incentive to throw out their (paraphrased) "junk 1970's
ARTS transponders", which apparently cause all radars -- including the
latest ASR11, lots of problems with ghosting, reply timing, etc. Of
course, we all knew about the motivation for TIS, but it was nice to
hear from the horse's mouth, so to speak.

A bit of trivia: While we've all been told that "TIS won't work with
center radars", that's not entirely accurate. In fact, center radars
were tested at the Tech Center and found capable of providing TIS data,
but the FAA made a call NOT to support them due to the 12 second radar
sweep delay. They thought that 12 seconds was too long and traffic data
that old would be more of a liability than an an asset to the pilot. In
comparison, approach radars which presently provide TIS revolve once
every four seconds.

Some of the sites on the east coast that will be upgraded to ASR11
without mode-s support, and will thus lose TIS support, are as follows:

Bangor, ME
Roanoke, VA
Wilmington, NC
Tallahassee, FL
Pensacola, FL

So, what can we do? Encourage your avionics shop to send sales data for
both the Garmin GTX330 and the King KT73 mode-s transponders to the
office responsible for Mode-S budgeting in OK City. I actually have a
name and telephone number of the guy responsible as well as the tech rep
at the Tech Center, but I promised NOT to release that info, so you'll
have to ask your avionics shop to track down the appropriate points of
contact on their own.

Also, if you're a member of AOPA (and if you're actively flying, I hope
for your sake you are a member), you can call or write them and let them
know you want the FAA to continue deployment of mode-s radars and to at
least maintain the modest investment we have in TIS.

-Doug

--
--------------------
Doug Vetter, CFIMEIA

http://www.dvcfi.com
--------------------

Doug Vetter wrote:


So, dare we ask, why is the FAA deploying ASR11 without mode-s? Two
reasons: someone in the FAA budget office had bad data that indicated
no one was using mode-s or TIS, and lacking user support, they decided
to buy the radars without the mode-s option to save money.

This is after the twisted peoples arms to get Mode S or reamed them to
fix their old Mode A/C transponder so that it would work properly in
the presence of a Mode S interrogation (due to their own stupidity
in not designing the Mode S protocol properly). Now that the FAA
actually has given real incentive for people to want mode S they're
pulling the plug. Typical FAA bull****.

On Thu, 23 Jun 2005 20:45:19 -0400, Doug Vetter
wrote:

So, what can we do? Encourage your avionics shop to send sales data for
both the Garmin GTX330 and the King KT73 mode-s transponders to the
office responsible for Mode-S budgeting in OK City. I actually have a
name and telephone number of the guy responsible as well as the tech rep
at the Tech Center, but I promised NOT to release that info, so you'll
have to ask your avionics shop to track down the appropriate points of
contact on their own.

Anyone with contacts who could have Cessna and Diamond send unit sales
data for the G1000 aircraft while they're at it? I think it unlikely
the shops will do anything directly, lead times just to get things
fixed can be quite high - let alone extracurricular activities like
tracking down someone in the mode S budgeting room at FAA HQ.

Might be easier to just compile the data yourself (wholesale numbers -
get numbers from Garmin and King) - "How many Mode S compatible
transponders have you sold?"