Victor Airways in Clearance

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message =
...
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 01:34:37 GMT, "John R. Copeland"
wrote:
=20
A disappointment in the CNX80 is in navigating to a distant VOR.
No matter how far away, it displays the fixed inbound VOR radial,
but calls it "Bearing to Waypoint".
In truth, it becomes the bearing only when you are near the VOR.
All other types of waypoints always display the correct great-circle =
bearing.

The manual (pg.13) implies this VOR behavior exists only for OBS =
mode,
but it's the case in any mode whenever a VOR is the current waypoint.

I received a private communication to the effect that they will make =
the
manual agree with the CNX80's behavior instead of fixing the problem.

My work-around is to create a User Waypoint at the same Lat/Lon
as any distant VOR I want to navigate toward.
I regret needing to do that.

I was told this choice was forced upon GarminAT by outside =
influences.
It was not the choice of GarminAT engineering.

I really hope they will find some compromise which will allow VORs
to become useful as waypoints. Right now, they are not.
Perhaps it could help if more CNX80 users told GarminAT they'd like
to navigate toward distant VORs.
---JRC---
=20
John,
=20
I've finally had some time to play with my new CNX80 as well as the
simulator recently posted on their web site. And I'd like to add a =
few
things to your observation, and possibly a different work-around.
=20
As I played with things more and more, I decided that I'm actually OK =
with
how it works!
=20
1. As you note, the "Bearing" on Map 1 represents the final course to =
the
VOR. However, (I think this next is true) since VOR radials follow a =
great
circle route, it also represents the VOR radial (reciprocal, actually) =
that
you would be flying were you to be navigating to that VOR.
=20
2. The CNX80 will still navigate along the Great Circle route. So, =
for
example, if I were to set up a flight plan from my home base (KEPM) to =
the
POMona VOR (NE of KLAX), the "Bearing" on Map 1 is 224=B0 but my =
actual
course, at the beginning of the flight, will be 291=B0.
=20
3. You can customize one of the other pages to show the Desired Track =
(DTK)
which will, indeed, be 291=B0 when starting out.
=20
But thanks for bringing up the point. It got me thinking about things =
I
might not otherwise have considered in using this box.
=20
=20
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Ron, I'm happy to hear you like your CNX80. I like mine, also.

Everything you said about the VOR radials is correct.
In fact, GarminAT released CNX80 newsletter #3 this very day.
It contains a discussion of the VOR bearing/radial situation.
It is substantially identical to information I previously received in a
private communication from them.

Regarding the choice of displaying DTK on a custom map page,
I believe that will not show the current bearing to waypoint under the
circumstance of having been vectored far enough away from course
that the bearing then differs from the DTK.
If I'm then re-cleared direct to the next waypoint, I've always liked
seeing the correct bearing display without needing to punch any buttons.

Furthermore, my MX20 has a prominent display of that "Bearing" number,
which becomes the VOR radial reciprocal, too.
I haven't seen a way to change that MX20 field to the DTK.
But it's no big deal. I can cope with it, too.

Did you find that bad spot in missed approaches on the Windows =
simulator?
---JRC---

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:34:05 GMT, "John R. Copeland"
wrote:

Ron, I'm happy to hear you like your CNX80. I like mine, also.

Everything you said about the VOR radials is correct.
In fact, GarminAT released CNX80 newsletter #3 this very day.
It contains a discussion of the VOR bearing/radial situation.
It is substantially identical to information I previously received in a
private communication from them.

I received that a few hours after I posted my message g.


Regarding the choice of displaying DTK on a custom map page,
I believe that will not show the current bearing to waypoint under the
circumstance of having been vectored far enough away from course
that the bearing then differs from the DTK.

I'm not sure what you mean here. In the example I gave in my previous post
(KEPM -- POM) the bearing and DTK are markedly different. What should I
set up to try to reproduce the issue you are talking about?


If I'm then re-cleared direct to the next waypoint, I've always liked
seeing the correct bearing display without needing to punch any buttons.

Again, I'm not sure I'm following you here. But I think the magenta line
will always intersect the DTK on the compass display.


Furthermore, my MX20 has a prominent display of that "Bearing" number,
which becomes the VOR radial reciprocal, too.
I haven't seen a way to change that MX20 field to the DTK.
But it's no big deal. I can cope with it, too.

Did you find that bad spot in missed approaches on the Windows simulator?

No. What is it?

Thanks.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Usually, I avoid in-line answers, but they seemed appropriate this =
time...


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message =
...
On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 21:34:05 GMT, "John R. Copeland"
wrote:
=20
=20

Regarding the choice of displaying DTK on a custom map page,
I believe that will not show the current bearing to waypoint under =
the
circumstance of having been vectored far enough away from course
that the bearing then differs from the DTK.
=20
I'm not sure what you mean here. In the example I gave in my previous =
post
(KEPM -- POM) the bearing and DTK are markedly different. What =
should I
set up to try to reproduce the issue you are talking about?
=20

Reproduce something like the following in your simulator:
When following a flight-plan leg, go to manual tracking,
and alter your heading 45=BA or so.
Note that the BRG to the next waypoint will gradually change,
reflecting the actual geometry of your position vs. the next waypoint,
but the DTK remains at the fixed value for the flight-planned course.

=20
If I'm then re-cleared direct to the next waypoint, I've always liked
seeing the correct bearing display without needing to punch any =
buttons.
=20
Again, I'm not sure I'm following you here. But I think the magenta =
line
will always intersect the DTK on the compass display.
=20

Yes, except that at long-range settings, the magenta line is curved a =
little.
No big deal, actually. You can eyeball the curvature reasonably well,
and guess pretty close to the local value of DTK.

But my point was that sometimes BRG is more important to me than DTK.
The button-pushing I mentioned was to compute a new Direct course.


Furthermore, my MX20 has a prominent display of that "Bearing" =
number,
which becomes the VOR radial reciprocal, too.
I haven't seen a way to change that MX20 field to the DTK.
But it's no big deal. I can cope with it, too.
=20
Did you find that bad spot in missed approaches on the Windows =
simulator?
=20
No. What is it?
=20

After you "Un-Suspend" waypoint sequencing in the Windows simulator,
and perform the missed-approach procedure, the aircraft position is =
computed
correctly as you proceed toward the Missed-Approach Hold Point,
but the distance and time to that next waypoint get continually reset to =
their
initial values.
The workaround is to force a "Direct-To" to the first waypoint of the =
procedure.
This bug does not occur in the actual CNX80 or its built-in simulator.

I have not heard back from my Apollo contact since I called his =
attention
to this bug three weeks ago.
I also have not tried downloading the Windows simulator again, to see if =
it's changed.
If you don't see the missed-approach bug, say so, and I'll get myself a =
fresh copy.
---JRC---

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 16:53:51 GMT, "John R. Copeland"
wrote:

Usually, I avoid in-line answers, but they seemed appropriate this time...

Concur

Reproduce something like the following in your simulator:
When following a flight-plan leg, go to manual tracking,
and alter your heading 45º or so.
Note that the BRG to the next waypoint will gradually change,
reflecting the actual geometry of your position vs. the next waypoint,
but the DTK remains at the fixed value for the flight-planned course.

OK I see what you mean. It's giving the track of the flight planned route,
period.

But this leads me to another area that I've started to look for. Is it
possible to constantly monitor the bearing to a way point, other than the
waypoint to which you are navigating? An example might be a request to
report crossing a specified bearing to an NDB, while navigating to another
waypoint.

Did you find that bad spot in missed approaches on the Windows simulator?

No. What is it?


After you "Un-Suspend" waypoint sequencing in the Windows simulator,
and perform the missed-approach procedure, the aircraft position is computed
correctly as you proceed toward the Missed-Approach Hold Point,
but the distance and time to that next waypoint get continually reset to their
initial values.
The workaround is to force a "Direct-To" to the first waypoint of the procedure.
This bug does not occur in the actual CNX80 or its built-in simulator.


Well, in trying to reproduce that bug, I came across what might be another
one in the simulator. The MAP called for a climb and then a turn to a
waypoint. The waypoint which ended the "climb" segment, remained a fixed
distance from the aircraft. Hence, we never reached it to be able to turn
to the Missed approach holding fix. It didn't seem to matter if the unit
was in SUSP or not.

This is version 1.2 of the simulator.

Perhaps you can confirm this, and report it also to your contact.

I'm glad it's not a problem in the real unit, although I have not flown a
missed approach with enough knowledge to be sure what was going on. Soon,
hopefully.

Thanks.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message =
...
=20
=20
Well, in trying to reproduce that bug, I came across what might be =
another
one in the simulator. The MAP called for a climb and then a turn to a
waypoint. The waypoint which ended the "climb" segment, remained a =
fixed
distance from the aircraft. Hence, we never reached it to be able to =
turn
to the Missed approach holding fix. It didn't seem to matter if the =
unit
was in SUSP or not.
=20
This is version 1.2 of the simulator.
=20
Perhaps you can confirm this, and report it also to your contact.
=20
I'm glad it's not a problem in the real unit, although I have not =
flown a
missed approach with enough knowledge to be sure what was going on. =
Soon,
hopefully.
=20
Thanks.
=20
=20
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

No, that's exactly the same bug I meant, Ron.
The shape of the missed approach seems immaterial,
and the Windows simulator seems to continually refresh the distance
and time fields with their original values from the MAP.

According to design, either Un-Suspending *OR* forcing a Direct-To
should make the missed approach function correctly,
but the Windows simulator didn't quite get the SUSP part right.

I'll get back later with something about the bearing to a particular =
point.
I think that's possible, but I'll need to check it first, and I'm going =
out right now.
---JRC--

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message =
...
=20
OK I see what you mean. It's giving the track of the flight planned =
route,
period. =20
=20
But this leads me to another area that I've started to look for. Is =
it
possible to constantly monitor the bearing to a way point, other than =
the
waypoint to which you are navigating? An example might be a request =
to
report crossing a specified bearing to an NDB, while navigating to =
another
waypoint.
=20
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

If the waypoint of interest is within range of your "NRST" twenty,
the CNX80 will give you a dynamic display of direction and distance
to it when you select the appropriate type of "NRST" waypoint.

For a waypoint outside of the nearest twenty of each type, you'll need =
to
retrieve your waypoint of interest from the DataBase.
When you have it, pressing INFO will give you dynamic direction and =
distance.
If the waypoint is an airport, you'll find direction and distance under =
"POS".

If you select an inappropriate type of waypoint, (ARTCC or FSS),
you'll get distance, but only a relative bearing instead of direction.
Oddly enough, you DO get direction and distance to special airspace.
It appears to measure to the closest point of that airspace.
---JRC---

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 00:37:32 GMT, "John R. Copeland"
wrote:


"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message ...

OK I see what you mean. It's giving the track of the flight planned route,
period.

But this leads me to another area that I've started to look for. Is it
possible to constantly monitor the bearing to a way point, other than the
waypoint to which you are navigating? An example might be a request to
report crossing a specified bearing to an NDB, while navigating to another
waypoint.

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

If the waypoint of interest is within range of your "NRST" twenty,
the CNX80 will give you a dynamic display of direction and distance
to it when you select the appropriate type of "NRST" waypoint.

For a waypoint outside of the nearest twenty of each type, you'll need to
retrieve your waypoint of interest from the DataBase.
When you have it, pressing INFO will give you dynamic direction and distance.
If the waypoint is an airport, you'll find direction and distance under "POS".

If you select an inappropriate type of waypoint, (ARTCC or FSS),
you'll get distance, but only a relative bearing instead of direction.
Oddly enough, you DO get direction and distance to special airspace.
It appears to measure to the closest point of that airspace.
---JRC---

OK. So I guess I could use the INFO display to monitor the cross-bearing;
and just use my HSI to navigate; and fall back on the old-fashioned method
of keeping myself oriented in my head g.

It'd be neat to be able to monitor the bearing and also watch the moving
map. One can do it with the cursor, but as soon as you change the display,
PAN mode discontinues. So it's not as easy.

Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message =
...

=20
OK. So I guess I could use the INFO display to monitor the =
cross-bearing;
and just use my HSI to navigate; and fall back on the old-fashioned =
method
of keeping myself oriented in my head g.
=20
It'd be neat to be able to monitor the bearing and also watch the =
moving
map. One can do it with the cursor, but as soon as you change the =
display,
PAN mode discontinues. So it's not as easy.
=20
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

I think you're saying you didn't buy the companion MX20 Multi-Function =
Display?
I did. You are right. It's VERY neat!

In your case, I might just leave the autopilot locked up on the course =
while I was
monitoring the cross-bearing. My HSI would alert me to any =
discrepancies.
---JRC---

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 03:48:58 GMT, "John R. Copeland"
wrote:

I think you're saying you didn't buy the companion MX20 Multi-Function Display?
I did. You are right. It's VERY neat!

In your case, I might just leave the autopilot locked up on the course while I was
monitoring the cross-bearing. My HSI would alert me to any discrepancies.

No, I did not purchase the MX20. Not really enough real estate on the
panel of a 1965 Mooney for that, to say nothing of the fact that it would
only add a small fraction of it's cost to the value of the a/c.

I also don't have roll-steering; and my HSI is non-slaved. I even had to
keep my ADF so I could receive the altimeter setting at my local airport.
But I was able to ditch my DME, and one of my KX155's.

But I really really like the CNX80.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message =
...
=20
No, I did not purchase the MX20. Not really enough real estate on the
panel of a 1965 Mooney for that, to say nothing of the fact that it =
would
only add a small fraction of it's cost to the value of the a/c.
=20
I also don't have roll-steering; and my HSI is non-slaved. I even had =
to
keep my ADF so I could receive the altimeter setting at my local =
airport.
But I was able to ditch my DME, and one of my KX155's.
=20
But I really really like the CNX80.
=20
=20
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

I wrestled with that "value" issue, too, Ron.
I decided the value to *me* counted more than the value to the next =
owner.
I've owned this airplane for twenty years, and I'll keep it for a long =
time yet.
My new avionics freed up a huge amount of panel space,
and gained me back nearly 30 kg of useful load (63.5 pounds).

I retained my KR87 ADF, too, because it still works well,
and it drives the existing RMI pointer in my flight director.

The CNX80 is a great box, and I salivate when I think about
the coming software version 2.
---JRC---