gun discharge in cockpit.

on 3/26/2008 10:58 PM John Ousterhout said the following:
Rich Ahrens wrote:
on 3/25/2008 12:46 PM Phil J said the following:
On Mar 24, 12:07 pm, "gatt" wrote:
http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/...-sjf-gunonplan...


Awfer... there went that experiment.

" CHARLOTTE, N.C.-- A gun carried by a US Airways pilot accidentally
discharged during a flight from Denver to Charlotte Saturday,
according to a
statement released by the airline...."

-c

This was no accident. The pilot was a huge Elvis fan, and he really
didn't like the weather his glass panel was showing him.

And this was no accident either:

http://www.khqa.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=112401

Nice drill there, pal...

Geez! Doesn't everyone know that you're supposed to use a 38 claiber
handgun to make holes for coax?

As someone noted in the first comment on that page...

On Mar 26, 11:54 pm, Big John wrote:
On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 06:15:35 -0700 (PDT), Dan
wrote:



On Mar 26, 8:32 am, Clark wrote:

As designed the 1911 & 1911A1 do not have firing pin blocks. As far as I know
only the Model 80 Colt 1911 has a firing pin block. There may be/probably are
other pistols based on the 1911 design that have firing pin blocks but do not
count on any 1911 form pistol to have a firing pin block.

I think you're right (though the last time I tore down a 1911 was
1990).

They are fine pistols, I just can't feel the same attachment so many
do (to the point of veneration).

Maybe it's due to so many awful, old, worn issue versions I fired.

Dan Mc

*******************************************

Dan Mc

I'm one who is attached to the 45.

I started shooting it in 1941, in the military, and shot expert every
time I qualified until I retired in 1972. This included the range guns
that sounded like a bunch of rocks in a tin can when they were shaken.

After I retired, I purchased a new 45 and have it as a home protection
gun.

My procedure is to remove the magazine and lock the slide open. Then
visually inspect the barrel to see that it is empty. I then close the
slide and pointing toward the roof I snap the trigger. I then put the
magazine back in the handle and gun back in my bed side table. No
rounds are left in barrel.

If I were to hear someone breaking into my house I would pick up gun
and jack the slide, putting a round in barrel and slide in battery and
gun cocked.

If needed I would then be able to fire the whole magazine of rounds. I
use frangible bullets so that they will not penetrate a standard wall.

When gun is hot, I keep my trigger finger outside the trigger guard
and along side the side of the gun until I plan on firing.

After going hot and I need to unload gun, I go through the same
procedure to make it cold, clean if fired and set up again in bedside
table.

This is a never change procedure and I feel very comfortable with the
safety of it having used it for years.

Big John

Big John,

The 45 is notorious for the rattling sound because the slide to frame
fit, the barrel, and the barrel bushing were made intentionally loose
so that the pistol would feed and the action would work even if gummed
up with dirt, etc. When the slide is forward the pistol tightens up
(or should!).

Pistol qualification ranges changed over the years until the latest
incarnations ("Combat Pistol" i.e. Pop up range).

On these ranges the targets were so close you could throw an empty
magazine and score a knockdown.

The Army (don't know about the other services) really downplayed
pistol skills except for competition shooters. As an Armor officer I
was issued a sidearm with the warning "if you gotta use this you are
in deep sh**."

As an Infantry Company Commander carrying a sidearm marked me as an
officer --- not a good thing -- so I carried a rifle.

The Army has differed from the Marines on the amount of time dedicated
to close quarters combat (hand-to-hand, pistol, bayonet, etc) which I
always thought was a mistake so my unit trained CQC whenever I could
get away with it. The soldiers loved it but the brass always wondered
why I was "wasting valuable training time."

Reason #3,788,321 to retire when I did.

As far as the method of carry -- the 1911 in condition 1 (round in the
chamber, hammer back, safety on) is as safe as you'll get and requires
minimal motion to fire. I used to maintain my semi-autos in condition
2 but realized I won't always have the luxury of "hearing the bump in
the night" to give me time to rack a round.

Though a few years ago a telemarketer called and started his spiel
--"We'll install an $800 security system in your home for free ---"

I interrupted him, "Dude - I have a big dog and a gun -- I'm good to
go."

He laughed and hung up.


Dan Mc

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 06:15:35 -0700 (PDT), Dan
wrote:

On Mar 26, 8:32 am, Clark wrote:

As designed the 1911 & 1911A1 do not have firing pin blocks. As far as I know
only the Model 80 Colt 1911 has a firing pin block. There may be/probably are
other pistols based on the 1911 design that have firing pin blocks but do not
count on any 1911 form pistol to have a firing pin block.

the last 1911 I fired was one of those in that box of them I
purchased. I have the S&W which is based on the 1911 and that has
both a firing pin AND hammer block. With the safety on the firing pin
is blocked. The hammer rests on a steel block and it can not be
cocked. For those used to the "cocked and locked" approach the first
introduction to the S&W might be a bit unnerving as putting the safety
on in the cocked position causes the hammer to fall. With the S&W
pushing the toggle safety to the fire position enables the double
action so the first pull will cock and fire the thing, BUT there is a
horrendous difference in trigger pull from over 10# in the double
action first shot to between 2 and 3# for subsequent shots.
The toggle is the only safety on the S&W. It does not have the grip
safety.

With my small hands this causes a shift in position making the
transition from the first shot to those following one that "for me"
eliminates any kind of acceptable accuracy. From the "cocked and
locked" position I do quite well



I think you're right (though the last time I tore down a 1911 was
1990).

They are fine pistols, I just can't feel the same attachment so many
do (to the point of veneration).

Maybe it's due to so many awful, old, worn issue versions I fired.

After the first shot in actual combat most of us would have trouble
matching the capabilities of those clapped out 1911s. One the fine
motor skills have left the building along with Elvis it's sorta point
and shoot.

I used to have customers come in and ask what would be the best
handgun for home defense. My usual rejoinder to this was if they had
to ask, don't get a hand gun. If they still insisted I suggested a
trip to the local gun club and a class. Our local police department
has such in conjunction with the local gun club. Otherwise a short
barrel 12ga was my suggestion.

They are long enough that it's more difficult to point them where you
don't want to, they are very effective and the shot stops in the first
or second wall instead of 3, 4, or 5 houses down the street.. Besides
between the tremendous noise and fantastic muzzle flash inside at
night should be good enough to discourage all but the most determined.
My own feelings are that If they are that determined you are still
better off with the 12Ga and probably in very deep doggie do.

When the adrenalin is pumping, the nerves are standing on end, and
your fine motor skills are non existent it takes someone with skill
and experience for a handgun to become really useful (outside of luck)

After the fist shot indoors even with a 9mm most people are deaf,
their head/ears are ringing like church bells, you are moving in a
sort of haze and you feel like your head is under water. It is not
like firing on a range wearing hearing protection under calm
conditions.

It's strange the ADs came up. Just couple days ago one of our local
business men had his hand guns out to the range. I do not know the
particulars as they have not been released. The only information
available is he had his hand guns to the range, dropped one, it went
off, and he's no longer with us. The revolver should not have been
loaded, or if out of the case should have been on the stand or
bench(still unloaded). Even with a carry permit you do not walk up to
the line, pull it out and start firing. I have seen an officer do
that, but even then he was committing a whole string of violations,
service and range that could have earned him a suspension or
reprimand.

I can only guess, but "I'd guess" he was probably placing several
handguns on the stand loaded, but "Id think" even then one falling
should not have caused an AD IF it was a modern firearm. If he fell
down with one in his hand he had his finger somewhere it didn't
belong. There are really just too many possibilities with the
exception he almost had to be violating safety rules. Which ones and
how is a different matter. Having spent so much time on a range Dan
might be able to speculate but with the information present that is
about all that is possible as far as I can see.





Dan Mc
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 20:06:01 -0500, Rich Ahrens
wrote:

on 3/25/2008 12:46 PM Phil J said the following:
On Mar 24, 12:07 pm, "gatt" wrote:
http://www.wcnc.com/news/topstories/...-sjf-gunonplan...

Awfer... there went that experiment.

" CHARLOTTE, N.C.-- A gun carried by a US Airways pilot accidentally
discharged during a flight from Denver to Charlotte Saturday, according to a
statement released by the airline...."

-c

This was no accident. The pilot was a huge Elvis fan, and he really
didn't like the weather his glass panel was showing him.

And this was no accident either:

http://www.khqa.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=112401

Dear, please stand a little to the left so you can get a better look
at where they may come though.:-))


Nice drill there, pal...
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On Mar 28, 1:54 am, Roger wrote:
The revolver should not have been
loaded, or if out of the case should have been on the stand or
bench(still unloaded). Even with a carry permit you do not walk up to
the line, pull it out and start firing. I have seen an officer do
that, but even then he was committing a whole string of violations,
service and range that could have earned him a suspension or
reprimand.

While I agree it's safe practice to get everything setup prior to
firing at a range, I don't think you mean that you couldn't walk up
and start firing if you wanted to...?

Each state is different, but a concealed carry permit means you can
carry a loaded firearm. That means you should be able to draw and fire
at any time -- range, backyard, or in an alley.


Dan Mc

On 2008-03-28, Roger wrote:
[home defence]
has such in conjunction with the local gun club. Otherwise a short
barrel 12ga was my suggestion.

A friend of mine in Houston has a pump action shotgun.

One night, a burglar was trying to break into the house - the sound and
sight of a pump action merely being readied for action was enough that
the would be burglar ran for it. This is of course the best outcome -
where a shot doesn't even need to be fired.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.

On Mar 28, 1:54 am, Roger wrote:

I used to have customers come in and ask what would be the best
handgun for home defense. My usual rejoinder to this was if they had
to ask, don't get a hand gun. If they still insisted I suggested a
trip to the local gun club and a class. Our local police department
has such in conjunction with the local gun club. Otherwise a short
barrel 12ga was my suggestion.

Absolutely -- a shotgun is an excellent home defense weapon. There are
plenty of pump actions that are reliable and inexpensive. The sound of
a pump chambering a round is usually quite persuasive. You don't aim a
shotgun -- you point.

It takes a lot of practice in many different positions to be truly
proficient with a handgun. Most people's exposure to handguns comes
from movies, where 110 lb spandex-wearing female heroines fire .50
caliber Desert Eagles (one ine each hand) while riding motorcycles.

The fact is MOST people who own handguns can't hit the side of a house
over 20 yards -- how do I know this? Spend a day at any range. And
those are the people actually practicing.

Therefore the shotgun is the absolute best choice for home defense --
point it at the bad guy, pull the trigger, cycle the action, and pull
again. If you don't him him follow the trail of poop to find him.

Though be sure the choke tubes are removed if you're using the gun for
home defense.

The short barrel's main advantage is that it prevents someone from
grabbing the barrel as you round a corner.

As far as Gun clubs -- whew -- and you think GA is bad when it comes
to winning over new members?

I stopped by a local range/Gun Store near hear a while ago. The
counter guy about wet his pants trying to show off how much he knew.
When I asked him where he served (he was using all sorts of Military
jargon) he mumbled something about a knee injury...

Gun shops and clubs are infected with all the various types of
humanity the rest of us are, but they seem particularly prone to
attracting the know-it-all show off who lives for the moment he can
show up some "newbie."

It's really a shame because shooting can be fun, challenging, and can
provide a good outlet -- in many ways like aviation. But many people
(especially women) are turned off by the Gun Club culture.

They are long enough that it's more difficult to point them where you
don't want to, they are very effective and the shot stops in the first
or second wall instead of 3, 4, or 5 houses down the street.. Besides
between the tremendous noise and fantastic muzzle flash inside at
night should be good enough to discourage all but the most determined.
My own feelings are that If they are that determined you are still
better off with the 12Ga and probably in very deep doggie do.

Shotgun pellets usually won't go very very through walls, but what
handgun are you shooting that will penetrate "3, 4, or 5 houses down
the street"?

A high powered rifle bullet might pass that far, but a handgun?


When the adrenalin is pumping, the nerves are standing on end, and
your fine motor skills are non existent it takes someone with skill
and experience for a handgun to become really useful (outside of luck)

Training, training, and more training. If you're not willing to invest
the time to attain and maintain proficiency, buy a shotgun.


After the fist shot indoors even with a 9mm most people are deaf,
their head/ears are ringing like church bells, you are moving in a
sort of haze and you feel like your head is under water. It is not
like firing on a range wearing hearing protection under calm
conditions.

I've shot in "fun houses" (Urban combat) plenty of times. Once you get
the adrenaline going and you get momentarily deafened by the first
shot, you're good to go. I never expereinced all the physiological
trauma you're talking about with a 9 mm.

here are really just too many possibilities with the
exception he almost had to be violating safety rules. Which ones and
how is a different matter. Having spent so much time on a range Dan
might be able to speculate but with the information present that is
about all that is possible as far as I can see.

It' doesn't take range time to know anything's possible. If there's a
way, someone will reason or stumble their way into it.

That's why we drill and practice the firearms handling rules, we don't
make exceptions, and we know the open end wil go boom when we least
expect it.



Dan Mc

On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT), Dan wrote:

The fact is MOST people who own handguns can't hit the side of a house
over 20 yards -- how do I know this? Spend a day at any range. And
those are the people actually practicing.

Is this house on this fictional firing range, is it 1 foot wide..or
less?

On Mar 28, 5:11 pm, WJRFlyBoy wrote:
On Fri, 28 Mar 2008 05:01:52 -0700 (PDT), Dan wrote:
The fact is MOST people who own handguns can't hit the side of a house
over 20 yards -- how do I know this? Spend a day at any range. And
those are the people actually practicing.

Is this house on this fictional firing range, is it 1 foot wide..or
less?

You are actually going to argue that "MOST people who own handguns"
can consistently group within 1' at 20 yards?

I'll be more than happy to show you the target end of any range.

In the meantime try posting something of value.


Dan Mc

Dylan Smith wrote:
On 2008-03-28, Roger wrote:
[home defence]
has such in conjunction with the local gun club. Otherwise a short
barrel 12ga was my suggestion.

A friend of mine in Houston has a pump action shotgun.

One night, a burglar was trying to break into the house - the sound and
sight of a pump action merely being readied for action was enough that
the would be burglar ran for it. This is of course the best outcome -
where a shot doesn't even need to be fired.


True. The rack of a .45 is pretty recognizable as well.