Discussion on dealing with future ADIZ Incursions by light A/C

In article ,
Larry Dighera wrote:

I think you're correct. The government is running scared of a
potential domestic insurrection as a result of population growth, and
taking this opportunity to put into place the (il)legal basis for
responding to any hint of it.

are we going just a bit over the top here?

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

I don't know the answer to that, but I do have an opinion about what
will eventually happen, and it won't be because some pilot made a
mistake.

There are, being generous, about 1,000,000 pilots in this country.
Probably less are active pilots, and even amoung the active, less are
proficient.

There are over 300,000,000 people living in this country. If you do
the math, you see that pilots are a tiny minority of the general
population.

We have no clout. I don't care how many AOPA members there are, we
have no real clout. When McVeigh blew up the Federal building, I
didn't see anyone immediately halting the rental of large trucks, nor
was the sale of fertilizer stopped. People could still buy diesel.

But when three planes hit the twin towers and the Pentagon, all
flight, including of all places Alaska, was halted. The reason was
that although I was afraid of trucks parked in front of buildings for
a while, there were just too many of them and too few light aircraft.

The reality here is this. We will be restricted as the European pilots
are now. It's just a matter of time. And since we are viewed
essentually as a bunch of Saturday and Sunday flying enthusiasts - it
will be easy to make draconian restrictions that we will fight and
lose.

The gravy days of flight are gone. When I was young, I could hop in my
dads Champ and fly about with nary a care. It's sad to see them go.


On 12 May 2005 09:20:01 -0700, "Hank Rausch"
wrote:

I would like to start a thread on what I see as the most pertinent
take-away from yesterday's incursion: How can the current responses be
modified to make the response more relevant to the threat, when the
inevitable occurs again and a pilot gets lost? Assuming pilots won't
get lost in the future doesn't seem very realistic (how many of us can
say that we were never lost?). And there seems to be general consensus
that the images on CNN of F-16's cavorting while the Cessna put-putted
its merry way, interspersed with shots of people fleeing the Capitol,
were faintly ridiculous and put the US in a bad light. So what's the
solution? CNN showed a red-green laser system they want to use to
signal pilots, but it's not clear how this would have addressed the
most recent incursion.

One of the issues is that there is no easy way to distinguish a 1200
sqawk from an L-4 (no, or minimum, threat) from the same squawk from a
G-4, which I think all of can agree could do significant damage.
Consequently, we adopt a one-resposne fits all policy to any incursion.
Are there any technological tricks which would help tailor the response
to the type of ariplane involved?

Hank Rausch
N8806T

The gravy days of flight are gone. When I was young, I could hop in my
dads Champ and fly about with nary a care. It's sad to see them go.

Not quite. Come to the Midwest -- the flying is still the same.

For now, anyway.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:91Mge.76032$c24.60809@attbi_s72...
I would like to start a thread on what I see as the most pertinent
take-away from yesterday's incursion: How can the current responses be
modified to make the response more relevant to the threat, when the
inevitable occurs again and a pilot gets lost? Assuming pilots won't
get lost in the future doesn't seem very realistic

You've already lost the argument by pre-supposing that pilots will
continue to be idiots.

CNN showed a red-green laser system they want to use to
signal pilots, but it's not clear how this would have addressed the
most recent incursion.

Anyone stupid enough to fly over Washington, D.C.'s most sensitive areas
would probably wonder what all the pretty lights were for...

No, the solution was EDUCATION of pilots, BY PILOTS. Peer pressure can be
a wonderfully effective thing, and we should be doing our best to either
educate or eliminate "pilots" such as these.

Unfortunately, I fear that the time for education may have passed us by,
and the Feds will be forced to assume that we are all morons.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


I agree with Jay on this one. The GA community loses everytime some idiot
does something like this. They should shoot the next one down.

Mike
MU-2

How can the current responses be
modified to make the response more relevant to the threat

What threat?

Serious question - identify the "threat" we are supposed to respond to,
and put it in context with other similar threats, and then it would make
sense to talk about possible reactions.

Personally, I see no threat whatsoever when a 150 flies over the White
House. Before we can identify the solution, it's important to identify
the problem, and be sure we are all talking about the -same- problem,
and be sure it -is- a problem.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

You've already lost the argument by pre-supposing that pilots will continue
to be idiots.

Was there an argument? And yes, pilots will continue to make mistakes.

Except you of course.

Jose
--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Blueskies" wrote in message
...

"Dudley Henriques" dhenriques@noware .net wrote in message
nk.net...


I can tell you one thing for sure, and the equation doesn't require a
bomb to go off either.
You can take it to the bank that the government has considered the sheer
propaganda value to the terrorist movement of a single aircraft, GA or
otherwise, managing to slip through these restricted areas and crash as a
simple suicide into ANY valuable American target. The effect of this
happening would be like an adrenalin shot for the terrorist world.
The government absolutely can NOT allow this to happen and will most
likely take every conceivable precaution to prevent just such an
occurrence from taking place.
I'm afraid it's not going to be a very "happy time" for General Aviation
as these threat options are considered and acted upon.
Personally, I think what's out there now is just the tip of a very big
"government control"iceberg.
Dudley Henriques


No, if an aircraft managed to crash in to something, then the folks in
gov'ment would spin it into some deranged individual acting alone or
similar; they would be absolutely sure to make it a non-terrorist event...

In this case the answer would be "yes" wouldn't it? :-) No doubt the
government would spin it. In fact, they would do everything in their power
to negate the terrorist's mission.
Spinning it is just one possible option the government would use to take the
sting out of the propaganda value terrorists would most certainly be present
if the pilot of such a mission was indeed a terrorist.
I honestly believe these last two in that 150 came within a hair's breath of
being shot down. The next one to wander into one of these areas might not be
so lucky!
Dudley Henriques

Chris Colohan wrote:

Another potential solution: charge pilots for the intercept. No
punishment, merely pass on the costs: bill stupid pilots for the cost
of the controller's time, blackhawk air & pilot time, and F16 air &
pilot time.

Perhaps the threat of receiving a $10,000 or more bill (not a fine,
merely a bill) will make folks more aware.

I think that after you factor in the costs of the panic/shutdown and business
loss, that you're looking at something more like $250,000. An G-d help you if
someone gets hurt during the evacuation.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

Dudley Henriques wrote:

I honestly believe these last two in that 150 came within a hair's breath of
being shot down. The next one to wander into one of these areas might not be
so lucky!

I've seen photos of Phalanx batteries being installed in the city. Probably just
a matter of time.

George Patterson
There's plenty of room for all of God's creatures. Right next to the
mashed potatoes.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:CcTge.77122$WI3.35627@attbi_s71...
The gravy days of flight are gone. When I was young, I could hop in my
dads Champ and fly about with nary a care. It's sad to see them go.

Not quite. Come to the Midwest -- the flying is still the same.

On second thought don't. We like the lack of traffic.


For now, anyway.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"