Do you support establishing a US Club Class? Yes answers only!

"Berry" wrote in message
...
In article
,
Tim wrote:


I am very much in favor of the U.S. club class and have flown both that
Region 5 has hosted.

Yes, and did very well, too.

As the Organizer of the two Club Class events, I have to put my thoughts in.
We should do away with the rule about prior US Team members being
ineligible. A World Champion is, after all, just that. So we need to send
our best pilots. We should not eliminate those of already proven ability.
But they need to know the nuances of flying the now medium performance
gliders, and the "tweaking" thereof. So they should have to win flying Club
Class gliders.

So--the Sports Class can be the "for fun" class. Club Class can be the
"serious" class.

I would favor that approach. A combined Sports/Club Nationals could be
viable.

Hartley Falbum
"KF" USA

On Sep 21, 4:45*pm, "HL Falbaum" wrote:
"Berry" wrote in message

...

In article
,
Tim wrote:

I am very much in favor of the U.S. club class and have flown both that
Region 5 has hosted.

Yes, and did very well, too.

As the Organizer of the two Club Class events, I have to put my thoughts in.
We should do away with the rule about prior US Team members being
ineligible. A World Champion is, after all, just that. So we need to send
our best pilots. We should not eliminate those of already proven ability.
But they need to know the nuances of flying the now medium performance
gliders, and the "tweaking" thereof. So they should have to win flying Club
Class gliders.

So--the Sports Class can be the "for fun" class. Club Class can be the
"serious" class.

I would favor that approach. A combined Sports/Club Nationals could be
viable.

Hartley Falbum
"KF" USA

My thoughts exactly. I've given my club mates long enough to answer
for themselves: we've got 6 club class flyers. We've all flown in
the
Cordele club class contest, except for 1 guy that hasn't flown any
contests yet (but will next year, probably).

On Sep 21, 3:14*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:
On Sep 21, 12:13*pm, Tim wrote:

Hello All:

If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
about...

Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?

I think you're mixing two issues: 1) having a contest labeled "club
class nationals" that only allows club gliders 2) getting the US team
committee to commit ahead of time to use the results of that contest,
and only that contest, to select world team members.

Issue #1 is pretty easy to solve. I can't speak for the entire RC, but
I would certainly support a request to run a "club class super
regionals" and probably even a "club class nationals." Heck, we allow
a "senior nationals" so why not. As with many big changes, it's worth
doing it by waiver for a few years to gauge success before permanently
changing rules. It would have to be inserted carefully in the contest
season --- the major objection to "club" is leaving the low
performance and older high performance gliders nowhere to fly, so it
should probably be on the other coast from the "sports nationals." But
it seems like a reasonable idea.

So, once again, if you want it, stop complaining and run it! Our major
problem is finding operators and CDs willing to run contests. We'll
look for your bid for next year. You might even be able to get one in
for the 2011 season if you hurry.

As for issue #2, well, try to understand the view of the very
reasonable people on the team committee. *When they look at sports
class results under current rules, they see a very weak team; one that
US pilots are not likely in the end to support with our hard-earned
cash. (We've talked here about megabucks -- the real megabucks is what
it costs to go to the worlds, any worlds.) It would be pretty
irresponsible of them to change team selection rules to use results of
a class that has had a grand total of two contests, and has not
responded to the pilot and glider restrictions in sports class.

I know you feel that "build it and they will come," if only there were
a separate scoresheet and no asw27s buzzing around, we'd finally have
50 people at these nationals, not 10-14 that show up (and almost none
two years in a row) despite the 27s not being eligible for team
selection. But you have to understand that they really can't change
rules based on a theory. If you run some "sports class nationals" by
waiver, and lots of people show up, that is most likely to persuade
them.

You may say "people won't show up without team points." But they would
answer "people aren't showing up now, despite team points, so team
points must not be that important to the vast majority of pilots." And
the team rankings back them up, in every class. See here

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

It's blatantly obvious that even in 15, 18, standard and PW5 that no
more than 4 or 5 people care enough about team points to bother
showing up to the same contest two years in a row.

Anyway, that's my best guess at how the team committee thinks about
it, and addressing that point of view is the most likely route to
success.

Just to be clear, there is nothing I would like to see more than a
vibrant club class with 60 pilots duking it out every year, then going
on to do well at the worlds. Make it happen. I think the whole RC and
team committee feel that way. There is nobody, absolutely nobody,
"against" club class. There is a worry that going about it wrong could
hurt the very successful sports class, produce a small weak
"specialist" class, and lead to more small contests that are money-
losers for the organizers. Address those worries, and you'll get what
you want.

John Cochrane

John,

your post is full of positive comments and for that we are thankful,
however I think there might be an issue with what you are saying in
regards to ranking.

Let's take an example of the Sports Nationals in Elmira last year
where conditions were very weak. Sean Franke flew a Club Class glider.
He did very well beating some well known pilots. Sean was 3rd overall.
One can wonder if Sean had flown an ASG-29 (first place) or an ASW-27
(second place) what the results would have been like. Now if the first
two pilots flew Club Class gliders Sean's ranking might have been 100.
I know these pilots flying these modern gliders are exceptionally good
(one of the best), but no one will ever know what would have happened
if they flew Club Class gliders in these poor conditions. Maybe they
still would have won maybe not.

I think the point I am trying to make is that pilots dedicated to Club
Class might have difficult time getting good ranking through Sports
Class alone, especially in contests where weak conditions prevail.
Everyone knows contests are won or lost on weak days. While ASG-29 can
make another thermal LS-1F might end up in a field. Simply saying Club
Class pilots ranking is too low might not be representative of their
skills.

Sean was selected based on the Club Class rules. He did very well at
the WGC, I say much better than the pilots who were selected to the
Team prior to restricting team eligibility to pilots flying Club Class
gliders so obviously having a bigger pool of gliders in the past did
not translate to good results at the WGC. If I am wrong on this point
please correct me. It seems the current rules worked very well
selecting a top pilot to represent US in WGC.

Another point to consider is that maybe there is a different reason
for our Team not showing their best at WGC since the same problem
exists in other classes.

I hope the decision to change the rules of selection is going to be
reconsidered. I think it would be wise to give it some more time
especially since economic conditions of the last couple of years are
not conductive to large contest participation.

I no longer have any personal interest in this discussion since I no
longer fly a Club Class glider. The reason I speak up is because I
think proper recognition of this class is the only way to bring young
people to serious contest flying especially considering poor economy
we have. Let's look at the makeup of pilots in our contests. Who is
going to be flying in 10+ years?

The reason I speak up is because I
think proper recognition of this class is the only way to bring young
people to serious contest flying especially considering poor economy
we have.

Hi Andrzej,

Good point, but I submit this is not necessarily an issue that should
be regarding in the context of how it affects only youth.

There are a lot of us old farts who can't afford to own and operate
more costly than a Club Class glider--especially in this economy at
this exchange rate!--who desire the opportunity to compete seriously
within a class (Club) whose philosophy and tasking does *not* consider
the lack of ability/capability of the lowest common denominator
(Sports).

This distinction between Club and Sports is what I suspect many others
just don't get.

Regards,

Ray

I suggest we have a club class nationals and sports class nationals
each year in different locations. Allow the club class nationals to be
in the west one year with the sports class nationals in the eastern
US. Then the following year, alternate so the club class nationals is
in the east and the sports class nationals is in the west.

I would love to compete in a club class contest and would be thrilled
to compete in a club class nationals.

On Sep 21, 12:14*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:

Just to be clear, there is nothing I would like to see more than a
vibrant club class with 60 pilots duking it out every year, then going
on to do well at the worlds. Make it happen. I think the whole RC and
team committee feel that way. There is nobody, absolutely nobody,
"against" club class. There is a worry that going about it wrong could
hurt the very successful sports class, produce a small weak
"specialist" class, and lead to more small contests that are money-
losers for the organizers. Address those worries, and you'll get what
you want.

It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
to:

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
team selection:

Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
further.

Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
they finished 15th and 16th.

The conclusion is that right now qualifying for the world team in Club
Class is not highly competitive, despite the fact that lots of pilots
(many of them highly ranked) compete in Sports Class nationals in the
US. If you can make it to two contests in three years and average out
to the top half of the score sheet you're good for the top slot. For a
second slot you don't even have to do that and you don't have to beat
the other Club Class gliders at the contests where you compete because
the effect of merely attending a second national contest gets you on
the team.

The other classes are in varying states of health, but none as bad as
Club Class:

Open Class isn't in great shape in terms of numbers, but at least
there you have 5-7 pilots who show up at 2-3 contests every three
years and the top three seeded pilots each have won a nationals. There
are 5 pilots above 80 points and three above 90.

World Class has a smaller number of even more dedicated pilots who
duke it out almost every year. Four pilots above 80 points, one above
90, but almost no participation beyond that.

Standard Class has a problem with broad, consistent attendance. Three
pilots above 80 points, all three of them above 90.

18 Meter Class is reasonably healthy. It has 10 pilots scoring above
80 points and four above 90.

15 Meter Class is the healthiest and most competitive with 14 above 80
points and 8 above 90. Twenty-six pilots in 15 Meter have flown
multiple national or international contests in the past three years.

The goal should be to get a cadre of Club Class pilots who can compete
at the top third of the scoresheet to go to two out of three Sports
Class Nationals and try to get their team selection points above 85 or
90 - or host a Club Class nationals that draws more than 15 pilots,
most with real competition track records. Until that actually happens
for a few years, I agree with the team selection committee, the best
bet is either to draw from the broader pool of pilots flying in Sports
Class or not field a Club Class team at all.

BTW, the contention that Club Class gliders can't compete in a
handicapped contest with modern ships is not consistent with the
facts.Just look at the scoresheets. There are Club ships in the top 10
- including at least one win at the national level. One Parowan super
regional was won by a Twin Astir - beating a world team pilot in a
modern ship. The handicaps, if anything favor Club class ships on
average.

If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
apathy.

9B

On Sep 24, 9:52*am, Andy wrote:
On Sep 21, 12:14*pm, John Cochrane
wrote:



Just to be clear, there is nothing I would like to see more than a
vibrant club class with 60 pilots duking it out every year, then going
on to do well at the worlds. Make it happen. I think the whole RC and
team committee feel that way. There is nobody, absolutely nobody,
"against" club class. There is a worry that going about it wrong could
hurt the very successful sports class, produce a small weak
"specialist" class, and lead to more small contests that are money-
losers for the organizers. Address those worries, and you'll get what
you want.

It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
to:

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
team selection:

Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
further.

Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
they finished 15th and 16th.

The conclusion is that right now qualifying for the world team in Club
Class is not highly competitive, despite the fact that lots of pilots
(many of them highly ranked) compete in Sports Class nationals in the
US. If you can make it to two contests in three years and average out
to the top half of the score sheet you're good for the top slot. For a
second slot you don't even have to do that and you don't have to beat
the other Club Class gliders at the contests where you compete because
the effect of merely attending a second national contest gets you on
the team.

The other classes are in varying states of health, but none as bad as
Club Class:

Open Class isn't in great shape in terms of numbers, but at least
there you have 5-7 pilots who show up at 2-3 contests every three
years and the top three seeded pilots each have won a nationals. There
are 5 pilots above 80 points and three above 90.

World Class has a smaller number of even more dedicated pilots who
duke it out almost every year. Four pilots above 80 points, one above
90, but almost no participation beyond that.

Standard Class has a problem with broad, consistent attendance. Three
pilots above 80 points, all three of them above 90.

18 Meter Class is reasonably healthy. It has 10 pilots scoring above
80 points and four above 90.

15 Meter Class is the healthiest and most competitive with 14 above 80
points and 8 above 90. Twenty-six pilots in 15 Meter have flown
multiple national or international contests in the past three years.

The goal should be to get a cadre of Club Class pilots who can compete
at the top third of the scoresheet to go to two out of three Sports
Class Nationals and try to get their team selection points above 85 or
90 - or host a Club Class nationals that draws more than 15 pilots,
most with real competition track records. Until that actually happens
for a few years, I agree with the team selection committee, the best
bet is either to draw from the broader pool of pilots flying in Sports
Class or not field a Club Class team at all.

BTW, the contention that Club Class gliders can't compete in a
handicapped contest with modern ships is not consistent with the
facts.Just look at the scoresheets. There are Club ships in the top 10
- including at least one win at the national level. One Parowan super
regional was won by a Twin Astir - beating a world team pilot in a
modern ship. The handicaps, if anything favor Club class ships on
average.

If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
apathy.

9B

I think partly that these numbers reflect the difficulty of travelling
all the way across the country to compete in the second national.
Open class has mostly been held in the West or Southwest, so it's
reasonable to get there. Standard and Sports class, in particular,
have bounced back and forth from New York or Georgia to California.
World class has been more of an East(ish) contest, only being as
far west as Hobbs once in 6 years.

Anyway, that's a whole 'nuther barrel of worms we like to indulge
in too often. However, I think what we're going to get is just a list
of pilots that already qualified for the WGC in another class, and
who will wind up flying an unfamiliar plane. Sigh. The real hope
is to get a viable club class really going.

So, I wholeheartily agree that we need to get more club class
contests going, even at a national level. I don't have a venue
to offer (my airport is too busy, lacks an alternate runway,
is hemmed in by 3 class C airports, and lacks camping space),
but I am willing to help (even though I'd rather fly my club class
plane!).

-- Matt

At 13:52 24 September 2010, Andy wrote:

It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
to:

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
team selection:

Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
further.

You might note that the WGC 2010 results were not factored in yet. That
pulls 2 more pilots above 50, one of them above 90 (nice job Sean!).

Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
they finished 15th and 16th.

You might also note that all 3 of them flew gliders not on the IGC list in
one or both of the qualifying contests. They are only on the expanded SSA
list.


snip


If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
apathy.

It might be more the cost of competing in US Nationals than apathy. Its
hard enough for the "rich guys" in the other FAI classes, harder still
for a cost sensitive class. But the cost of a Nationals entry is a
pittance compared to the cost of flying in an overseas WGC, even with US
Team support. Then again, the experience is priceless...

I support establishing a US Club Class, even though I won't likely go
back to flying old gliders again to compete in it.

-Dave

On Sep 24, 8:10*am, David Leonard
wrote:
At 13:52 24 September 2010, Andy wrote:

It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
to:

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
team selection:

Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
further.

You might note that the WGC 2010 results were not factored in yet. That
pulls 2 more pilots above 50, one of them above 90 (nice job Sean!).

Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
they finished 15th and 16th.

You might also note that all 3 of them flew gliders not on the IGC list in
one or both of the qualifying contests. They are only on the expanded SSA
list.

snip

If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
apathy.

It might be more the cost of competing in US Nationals than apathy. Its
hard enough for the "rich guys" in the other FAI classes, harder still
for a cost sensitive class. But the cost of a Nationals entry is a
pittance compared to the cost of flying in an overseas WGC, even with US
Team support. *Then again, the experience is priceless...

I support establishing a US Club Class, even though I won't likely go
back to flying old gliders again to compete in it.

-Dave

Good adds Dave. It seemed odd to see Sean down the list - nice job
indeed!

Your comments do take us back to finding ways to make competition less
onerous in terms of time and distance - mostly at the National level.
It's really bad for Club, but also an issue in other classes.

My suggestion from a while back is that we set maximum seeding points
for ANY contest in proportion to the number and quality (in terms of
seeing points, say) of the pilots flying in each contest within each
class. Then you could pick WGC team members off that list (with the
WGC bonus). In some cases a Super Regional contest might afford more
points than an under-attended national contest. This would allow the
Club Class to put all their wood behind one large and one small
contest each year on opposite sides of the country. That way you can
at least score some points every year and if you did really well, make
the team.

The other alternative is to expand the WGC criteria beyond three years
- not my favorite option.

9B

On Sep 24, 12:11*pm, Andy wrote:
On Sep 24, 8:10*am, David Leonard



wrote:
At 13:52 24 September 2010, Andy wrote:

It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
to:

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
team selection:

Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
further.

You might note that the WGC 2010 results were not factored in yet. That
pulls 2 more pilots above 50, one of them above 90 (nice job Sean!).

Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
they finished 15th and 16th.

You might also note that all 3 of them flew gliders not on the IGC list in
one or both of the qualifying contests. They are only on the expanded SSA
list.

snip

If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
apathy.

It might be more the cost of competing in US Nationals than apathy. Its
hard enough for the "rich guys" in the other FAI classes, harder still
for a cost sensitive class. But the cost of a Nationals entry is a
pittance compared to the cost of flying in an overseas WGC, even with US
Team support. *Then again, the experience is priceless...

I support establishing a US Club Class, even though I won't likely go
back to flying old gliders again to compete in it.

-Dave

Good adds Dave. It seemed odd to see Sean down the list - nice job
indeed!

Your comments do take us back to finding ways to make competition less
onerous in terms of time and distance - mostly at the National level.
It's really bad for Club, but also an issue in other classes.

My suggestion from a while back is that we set maximum seeding points
for ANY contest in proportion to the number and quality (in terms of
seeing points, say) of the pilots flying in each contest within each
class. Then you could pick WGC team members off that list (with the
WGC bonus). In some cases a Super Regional contest might afford more
points than an under-attended national contest. *This would allow the
Club Class to put all their wood behind one large and one small
contest each year on opposite sides of the country. That way you can
at least score some points every year and if you did really well, make
the team.

The other alternative is to expand the WGC criteria beyond three years
- not my favorite option.

9B

Here we go with one of our favorite containers of worms... :-)
Actually I kinda like that idea with a counter-continental super-
regional.
However, at the moment all that a super-regional gives you is more
scheduled days and more seeded pilots from outside the region. The
pilot ranking value isn't any higher. It would be worthwhile to
compare
how the ranking done under the IGC system matches up, although it
would require a fair bit of number crunching.

-- Matt