Do you support establishing a US Club Class? Yes answers only!

On Sep 24, 9:21*am, mattm wrote:
On Sep 24, 12:11*pm, Andy wrote:





On Sep 24, 8:10*am, David Leonard

wrote:
At 13:52 24 September 2010, Andy wrote:

It's very informative to look at the team selection lists John linked
to:

http://soaringweb.org/US_Team/HomePage.html

To be clear, here is what we are doing right now for Club Class world
team selection:

Five pilots "qualified" for the world team in Club Class in 2010 with
one scoring more than 80 points and the others scoring in the 50s and
below. Keep in mind that the points are based only on scores of
participating Club Class gliders, not all competitors, in the Sports
Class Nationals. Including all competitors would lower the scores
further.

You might note that the WGC 2010 results were not factored in yet. That
pulls 2 more pilots above 50, one of them above 90 (nice job Sean!).

Only one pilot flying a Club Class glider even completed two Sports
Class National contests in the past three years, finishing 19th out of
40 and 10th out of 30. The other two pilots each withdrew from one of
the two nationals they competed in. For the contests they completed
they finished 15th and 16th.

You might also note that all 3 of them flew gliders not on the IGC list in
one or both of the qualifying contests. They are only on the expanded SSA
list.

snip

If you want a vibrant Club Class make it happen! I think everyone
would love to see it. It's not the rules that stand in the way, it's
apathy.

It might be more the cost of competing in US Nationals than apathy. Its
hard enough for the "rich guys" in the other FAI classes, harder still
for a cost sensitive class. But the cost of a Nationals entry is a
pittance compared to the cost of flying in an overseas WGC, even with US
Team support. *Then again, the experience is priceless...

I support establishing a US Club Class, even though I won't likely go
back to flying old gliders again to compete in it.

-Dave

Good adds Dave. It seemed odd to see Sean down the list - nice job
indeed!

Your comments do take us back to finding ways to make competition less
onerous in terms of time and distance - mostly at the National level.
It's really bad for Club, but also an issue in other classes.

My suggestion from a while back is that we set maximum seeding points
for ANY contest in proportion to the number and quality (in terms of
seeing points, say) of the pilots flying in each contest within each
class. Then you could pick WGC team members off that list (with the
WGC bonus). In some cases a Super Regional contest might afford more
points than an under-attended national contest. *This would allow the
Club Class to put all their wood behind one large and one small
contest each year on opposite sides of the country. That way you can
at least score some points every year and if you did really well, make
the team.

The other alternative is to expand the WGC criteria beyond three years
- not my favorite option.

9B

Here we go with one of our favorite containers of worms... :-)
Actually I kinda like that idea with a counter-continental super-
regional.
However, at the moment all that a super-regional gives you is more
scheduled days and more seeded pilots from outside the region. *The
pilot ranking value isn't any higher. *It would be worthwhile to
compare
how the ranking done under the IGC system matches up, although it
would require a fair bit of number crunching.

-- Matt

Yup, the point would be to make the max seeding points go to 1.00 if
you had, say,10 total seeding points in the first 11 competitors in a
class (remember seeding points per pilot are on a 1.000 scale).
Anything below that could be pro-rata. You could make the scale non-
linear to up the total points available for contests where a class
didn't have 11 pilots but it was stacked with national champions, for
instance, but in general you'd need a minimum threshold in terms of
breadth as well as quality of competition to get the higher point
potential.

It just seems to me it would make much more sense to have a system
where the points you got were related to the number and quality of the
competition (and maybe also the number of days flown to a lesser
extent). The Nationals would still be for determining a national
champion to maintain the incentive for classes to gather in a single
contest.

9B

Everyone:

Great overall thread(s) on this subject with many good ideas and
comments to this dream of mine to bring Club Class to the shores of
the USA.

I agree with BB that "build it and they will come" is absolutely no
guarantee of short-term or long-term success for Club Class. Just look
at what happened to the World Class - sure they built it, but few ever
came to the party... no matter how good the party actually was or
could have been.

What Club Class supporters need to do now is 1) get together and let
each other know who is interested, 2) share and expand their passion
for this class and racing these older ships, 3) organize themselves
and contest organizers to a prolonged commitment to seeing if the
class works, 4) and come up with a plan of action - even if the first
step is convincing their local regional contest to ask for a club
class waiver AND promote the existence of a Club Class offering at
their next contest.

To that end, please join and tell your friends interested in Club
Class to join our facebook group:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=120361478018985

BB is correct when he says that the supports of Club Class need to get
off their rears and start making it happen.

Well, in fact, I suggested the idea of racing a Club Class at last
spring's Region 10N contest in Cherry Valley, AR. and we had a good
number of Club Class eligible gliders (9 entered). However, there were
a few/one glider that did not want to race in the FAI Class, and would
probably have not come to the contest otherwise. I told Micki and
Charlie that I wanted to see if a club class could work, but that I
did not want to freeze anyone out.

In retrospect, I should have stuck to my guns a little more and not
been so nice. Then we would have had two club class regionals
organized last year. And with 9 out of 10 glider in that sports class
being club class gliders, we effectively DID have another Club Class
regional last year.

Maybe Club Class supporters just have to make the commitment to this
push and realize that this push for Club Class at regionals as a first
step might just shut some people out from flying a handicapped class
if that affects the viability of sports class.

However, unless they are flying an open class ship, these pilots
turned away from sports class due to any "burgeoning" of Club Class
generally will still have a class to race in, albeit against newer
generation ships of their glider's class (i.e. in 15m, Std, 18m). They
might not like it, but we club class supporters need to think of our
own interests a little more rather than just sitting back and
accepting that Sports Class is the best racing opportunity we can
expect to ever get.

Team EY, Susan and I, are willing to lead this effort to organize a US
Club Class, but we will need the support of many more of you and the
support of the contest organizing world in general to make it happen.

Thanks,
Tim EY

On Sep 21, 1:13*pm, Tim wrote:
Hello All:

If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
about...

Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?

I recognize that the devil is alwawsy in the details, but please
answer yes to the following question, maybe a substantial turn-out
might impress upon the RC/USSTC.

While I appreciate the anti-Club Class Camp and their arguments,
supporters need to come up with some sort of data to support the
viability or confirm the impossibility of this Class here in the USA.

So, if you are not a supporter of this concept, or you do not
affirmatively know of a pilot who might be willing to fly such a
class, please do not post to this thread.

Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
Club Class Nationals?

Thank You,

Tim S. McAllister
EY

2004,2006 US Team - Club Class
2005, 2007 FAI World GP

One RC member's positions:
1- I support the development of the club class building from the
regional level to the point where there is participation on a national
level sufficient to have a viable and meaningful national championship
anywhere in the US.
2- I do not support the expansion of the handicap list beyond the
range used at the most recent WGC. My personal experience is that the
gliders flying in this class do require some pilot adaptation in order
to be competitive.
3- I do support allowing gliders within the handicap range, but not on
the IGC list, to participate.
4- I do not support the elimination of the provision currently in
place to not allow previous US FAI WGC to represent the US in the WGC.
My position on this may well change if we don't start to see more than
a couple pilots serious enough to fly in the contests required to
qualify.
These are my personal opinions which will be part of my contribution
to the ongoing rules process
H Nixon
UH
2001, 2002 US Team- Club Class
SSA Competition Rules Subcommittee Chair

On Sep 24, 7:27*pm, wrote:
On Sep 21, 1:13*pm, Tim wrote:





Hello All:

If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
about...

Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?

I recognize that the devil is alwawsy in the details, but please
answer yes to the following question, maybe a substantial turn-out
might impress upon the RC/USSTC.

While I appreciate the anti-Club Class Camp and their arguments,
supporters need to come up with some sort of data to support the
viability or confirm the impossibility of this Class here in the USA.

So, if you are not a supporter of this concept, or you do not
affirmatively know of a pilot who might be willing to fly such a
class, please do not post to this thread.

Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
Club Class Nationals?

Thank You,

Tim S. McAllister
EY

2004,2006 US Team - Club Class
2005, 2007 FAI World GP

One RC member's positions:
1- I support the development of the club class building from the
regional level to the point where there is participation on a national
level sufficient to have a viable and meaningful national championship
anywhere in the US.
2- I do not support the expansion of the handicap list beyond the
range used at the most recent WGC. My personal experience is that the
gliders flying in this class do require some pilot adaptation in order
to be competitive.
3- I do support allowing gliders within the handicap range, but not on
the IGC list, to participate.
4- I do not support the elimination of the provision currently in
place to not allow previous US FAI WGC to represent the US in the WGC.
My position on this may well change if we don't start to see more than
a couple pilots serious enough to fly in the contests required to
qualify.
These are my personal opinions which will be part of my contribution
to the ongoing rules process
H Nixon
UH
2001, 2002 US Team- Club Class
SSA Competition Rules Subcommittee Chair

Hank,

If I look at 2 and 3 on your list it would allow current generation
Standard Class gliders (e.g. ASW-28, LS-8 and Discus 2) to compete in
club class since they have a handicap between the ASW-20 and the
Standard Cirrus. Is that correct?

If so, it's an interesting idea and is 100% within the objections
heard here that too much handicap range is bad - it actually _narrows_
the US Club Class handicap range by eliminating some flapped ships
like the LS-6 from cthe US list. BTW, there were 7 Discus 2s flying at
the 2010 Sports Nationals though admittedly 4 of them were USAFA
ships.

It would also significantly open up Club Class to many more highly-
ranked pilots who currently fly Standard Class. It might also
invigorate Standard Class by giving more competitive options to pilots
flying these ships. I presume there wouldn't be any objection to this
from the promoters of Club Class because of the narrow range of
handicaps allowed, but I'd be curious to hear if there is some
rationale as to why this isn't a good idea.

I'd be willing to support Hank's proposal, even though I have doubts
as to whether it will be enough, as a way to bring everyone together.

9B

On Sep 24, 7:27*pm, wrote:
On Sep 21, 1:13*pm, Tim wrote:





Hello All:

If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
about...

Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?

I recognize that the devil is alwawsy in the details, but please
answer yes to the following question, maybe a substantial turn-out
might impress upon the RC/USSTC.

While I appreciate the anti-Club Class Camp and their arguments,
supporters need to come up with some sort of data to support the
viability or confirm the impossibility of this Class here in the USA.

So, if you are not a supporter of this concept, or you do not
affirmatively know of a pilot who might be willing to fly such a
class, please do not post to this thread.

Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
Club Class Nationals?

Thank You,

Tim S. McAllister
EY

2004,2006 US Team - Club Class
2005, 2007 FAI World GP

One RC member's positions:
1- I support the development of the club class building from the
regional level to the point where there is participation on a national
level sufficient to have a viable and meaningful national championship
anywhere in the US.
2- I do not support the expansion of the handicap list beyond the
range used at the most recent WGC. My personal experience is that the
gliders flying in this class do require some pilot adaptation in order
to be competitive.
3- I do support allowing gliders within the handicap range, but not on
the IGC list, to participate.
4- I do not support the elimination of the provision currently in
place to not allow previous US FAI WGC to represent the US in the WGC.
My position on this may well change if we don't start to see more than
a couple pilots serious enough to fly in the contests required to
qualify.
These are my personal opinions which will be part of my contribution
to the ongoing rules process
H Nixon
UH
2001, 2002 US Team- Club Class
SSA Competition Rules Subcommittee Chair

Hank,

If I read points 2 and 3 right you are proposing to _narrow_ the range
of handicaps in the US Club Class - eliminating from the list the
likes of the LS-6 but also allowing the current generation of Standard
Class gliders, such as the ASW-28, Discus 2 and LS-8. Is that correct?

If that's the proposal it is interesting in that it completely blunts
the argument that we shouldn't broaden the handicap range of Club
Class (in fact it takes things in the opposite direction) but it does
allow a significant number of national caliber competition pilots to
fly Club Class. I'd be curious to hear reactions. I think it might be
too modest a move, but it could invigorate interest in Club Class AND
Standard Class by broadening the competitive possibilities for owners
of these glider types.

9B

On Sep 25, 2:55*pm, Andy wrote:
On Sep 24, 7:27*pm, wrote:





On Sep 21, 1:13*pm, Tim wrote:

Hello All:

If you have not figured it out, this is a topic I care passionnately
about...

Could we try and give the members of the US RC that post here/read
opinions here regularly an idea of the possible support for
establishing a stand alone US Club Class Nationals?

I recognize that the devil is alwawsy in the details, but please
answer yes to the following question, maybe a substantial turn-out
might impress upon the RC/USSTC.

While I appreciate the anti-Club Class Camp and their arguments,
supporters need to come up with some sort of data to support the
viability or confirm the impossibility of this Class here in the USA.

So, if you are not a supporter of this concept, or you do not
affirmatively know of a pilot who might be willing to fly such a
class, please do not post to this thread.

Question: Would you, or someone you know, would willingly fly or offer
your Club Class glider to someone who would fly at a stand-alone US
Club Class Nationals?

Thank You,

Tim S. McAllister
EY

2004,2006 US Team - Club Class
2005, 2007 FAI World GP

One RC member's positions:
1- I support the development of the club class building from the
regional level to the point where there is participation on a national
level sufficient to have a viable and meaningful national championship
anywhere in the US.
2- I do not support the expansion of the handicap list beyond the
range used at the most recent WGC. My personal experience is that the
gliders flying in this class do require some pilot adaptation in order
to be competitive.
3- I do support allowing gliders within the handicap range, but not on
the IGC list, to participate.
4- I do not support the elimination of the provision currently in
place to not allow previous US FAI WGC to represent the US in the WGC.
My position on this may well change if we don't start to see more than
a couple pilots serious enough to fly in the contests required to
qualify.
These are my personal opinions which will be part of my contribution
to the ongoing rules process
H Nixon
UH
2001, 2002 US Team- Club Class
SSA Competition Rules Subcommittee Chair

Hank,

If I read points 2 and 3 right you are proposing to _narrow_ the range
of handicaps in the US Club Class - eliminating from the list the
likes of the LS-6 but also allowing the current generation of Standard
Class gliders, such as the ASW-28, Discus 2 and LS-8. Is that correct?

If that's the proposal it is interesting in that it completely blunts
the argument that we shouldn't broaden the handicap range of Club
Class (in fact it takes things in the opposite direction) but it does
allow a significant number of national caliber competition pilots to
fly Club Class. I'd be curious to hear reactions. I think it might be
too modest a move, but it could invigorate interest in Club Class AND
Standard Class by broadening the competitive possibilities for owners
of these glider types.

9B

Sorry - didn't mean to post that twice!