2008 SSA Convention Details ???

Come on now, what where some of the highlights from this year's
convention for those of us stuck at home for various reasons. With no
convention next year, there should have been a lot of "new" stuff.
Usually RAS is full of post-convention

Some information I would love to hear about would be....

How'd the Flarm/ADS-B forum go?
Extreme Performance/Sinha De-turbulator update?
Duckhawk update?
Anything else of interest?

Really, anythign will do...

EY (sitting here with Baby...)

On Feb 20, 6:54 pm, Tim wrote:
Come on now, what where some of the highlights from this year's
convention for those of us stuck at home for various reasons. With no
convention next year, there should have been a lot of "new" stuff.
Usually RAS is full of post-convention

Some information I would love to hear about would be....

How'd the Flarm/ADS-B forum go?
Extreme Performance/Sinha De-turbulator update?
Duckhawk update?
Anything else of interest?

Really, anythign will do...

EY (sitting here with Baby...)

Tim,
OK..I will start this off with three topics. As is typical of many
conventions there were some very interesting seminars, discussions and
displays...

1. Winches - Due to the increasing cost of tows, there was a lot of
interest in winches. Two were on display on the convention floor and
there were two seminars on winch launching. Winch launching is
uncommon in the US and for any organization that considers buying a
winch, proper training with formalized procedures will be critical to
ensure successful winch launches. Safety will also be critical for a
successful operation and this was discussed by many of the experts. It
will be interesting to see if we see an influx of winches into the US
in the next few years.....

2. FLARM and collision avoidance - This was also a subject for
discussion. With approx 10,000 FLARM units sold worldwide it is
probably just a matter of time before we see these units in the US.
They appear to be effective in minimizing mid-airs between gliders and
they also warn gliders in Europe on towers and cables in the Alps. The
company (FLARM) will need FCC approval and they are working on some
legal/liability issues, but hopefully there will be US availability in
the near future.

3. Jonker JS1 Revelation - A seminar was held on this new 18M glider
by Attie Jonker. Unfortunately, one was not available for display, but
the presentation was excellent and Attie went into detail on the
development of this new, high performance competition sailplane.
Hopefully in a few months the first JS1 will arrive in the US....

I hope these first few topics get the "conversation" started on the
SSA Convention!
Renny - Albuquerque, NM

I wrote up a brief summary of what interested me, available he
http://www.mindensoaringclub.com

Flarm in the USA is just a matter of time, they basically announced
their intent to enter the USA market and are talking to potential
dealers, etc.

Darryl

On Feb 20, 5:54 pm, Tim wrote:
Come on now, what where some of the highlights from this year's
convention for those of us stuck at home for various reasons. With no
convention next year, there should have been a lot of "new" stuff.
Usually RAS is full of post-convention

Some information I would love to hear about would be....

How'd the Flarm/ADS-B forum go?
Extreme Performance/Sinha De-turbulator update?
Duckhawk update?
Anything else of interest?

Really, anythign will do...

EY (sitting here with Baby...)

On Feb 20, 8:16*pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
I wrote up a brief summary of what interested me, available hehttp://www.mindensoaringclub.com

Flarm in the USA is just a matter of time, they basically announced
their intent to enter the USA market and are talking to potential
dealers, etc.

Darryl

On Feb 20, 5:54 pm, Tim wrote:



Come on now, what where some of the highlights from this year's
convention for those of us stuck at home for various reasons. With no
convention next year, there should have been a lot of "new" stuff.
Usually RAS is full of post-convention

Some information I would love to hear about would be....

How'd the Flarm/ADS-B forum go?
Extreme Performance/Sinha De-turbulator update?
Duckhawk update?
Anything else of interest?

Really, anythign will do...

EY (sitting here with Baby...)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A couple of years ago I was PIC on a Citation descending into Reno.
ATC called out glider traffic. Me and my co-pilot were looking hard
but didn't see anything until......I saw it at my 9 o'clock, my
altitude, about 200 yards away. Too dang close!!

This makes me think that the only workable long term solution is that
gliders need to be doing the same thing everybody else is. Thus,
FLARM is a dead end. But hey, it's cheap and doesn't really hurt
anything. ADS-B does about the same thing but eventually everyone
will be doing that so that is where we need to end up. Meanwhile,
look for a lite, cheap, low-power, small transponder to use along with
a ZAON.

I attended the second half of the session Wednesday afternoon (late
arrival) and didn't hear anything that made me change my mind about
the above.

K l e i n

If you read my write up about the convention you'll see I agree on
Transponders and PCAS. Flarm *might* have it's place as well (glider
to glider collision avoidance in contests/high glider traffic areas,
e.g. places like the White mountains). ADSB is the long term solution,
with such a long time until we see usable units in gliders that I
expect Flarm may get a beachhead in the USA. I'll buy a Flarm and see
for myself. If it discourages people adopting Transponders where they
should (and that's a lot more places than just Reno) then its a bad
thing. What would be interesting is a combined Zaon PCAS + Flarm unit.
People were asking about the possibility of this at the convention.

BTW I was flying a Duo Discus (with transponder installed and actually
turned on) coming south onto the north end of the Pinenuts when the
Hawker and ASG-29 collided, I spent a large part of that flight
discussing transponders with the other pilot flying in the Duo with
me. I was arguing pro, he was arguing did not make much difference. It
was a hell of a way to win an argument. My DG-303 and ASH-26E both
carry Becker transponders and Zaon MRX PCAS, and the club I used to be
a member of also had transponders in all of its gliders.


Darryl

On Feb 20, 8:18 pm, K l e i n wrote:
On Feb 20, 8:16 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:



I wrote up a brief summary of what interested me, available hehttp://www.mindensoaringclub.com

Flarm in the USA is just a matter of time, they basically announced
their intent to enter the USA market and are talking to potential
dealers, etc.

Darryl

On Feb 20, 5:54 pm, Tim wrote:

Come on now, what where some of the highlights from this year's
convention for those of us stuck at home for various reasons. With no
convention next year, there should have been a lot of "new" stuff.
Usually RAS is full of post-convention

Some information I would love to hear about would be....

How'd the Flarm/ADS-B forum go?
Extreme Performance/Sinha De-turbulator update?
Duckhawk update?
Anything else of interest?

Really, anythign will do...

EY (sitting here with Baby...)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A couple of years ago I was PIC on a Citation descending into Reno.
ATC called out glider traffic. Me and my co-pilot were looking hard
but didn't see anything until......I saw it at my 9 o'clock, my
altitude, about 200 yards away. Too dang close!!

This makes me think that the only workable long term solution is that
gliders need to be doing the same thing everybody else is. Thus,
FLARM is a dead end. But hey, it's cheap and doesn't really hurt
anything. ADS-B does about the same thing but eventually everyone
will be doing that so that is where we need to end up. Meanwhile,
look for a lite, cheap, low-power, small transponder to use along with
a ZAON.

I attended the second half of the session Wednesday afternoon (late
arrival) and didn't hear anything that made me change my mind about
the above.

K l e i n

On Feb 20, 8:26 pm, wrote:
On Feb 20, 6:54 pm, Tim wrote:

Come on now, what where some of the highlights from this year's
convention for those of us stuck at home for various reasons. With no
convention next year, there should have been a lot of "new" stuff.
Usually RAS is full of post-convention

Some information I would love to hear about would be....

How'd the Flarm/ADS-B forum go?
Extreme Performance/Sinha De-turbulator update?
Duckhawk update?
Anything else of interest?

Really, anythign will do...

EY (sitting here with Baby...)

Tim,
OK..I will start this off with three topics. As is typical of many
conventions there were some very interesting seminars, discussions and
displays...

1. Winches - Due to the increasing cost of tows, there was a lot of
interest in winches. Two were on display on the convention floor and
there were two seminars on winch launching. Winch launching is
uncommon in the US and for any organization that considers buying a
winch, proper training with formalized procedures will be critical to
ensure successful winch launches. Safety will also be critical for a
successful operation and this was discussed by many of the experts. It
will be interesting to see if we see an influx of winches into the US
in the next few years.....

2. FLARM and collision avoidance - This was also a subject for
discussion. With approx 10,000 FLARM units sold worldwide it is
probably just a matter of time before we see these units in the US.
They appear to be effective in minimizing mid-airs between gliders and
they also warn gliders in Europe on towers and cables in the Alps. The
company (FLARM) will need FCC approval and they are working on some
legal/liability issues, but hopefully there will be US availability in
the near future.

3. Jonker JS1 Revelation - A seminar was held on this new 18M glider
by Attie Jonker. Unfortunately, one was not available for display, but
the presentation was excellent and Attie went into detail on the
development of this new, high performance competition sailplane.
Hopefully in a few months the first JS1 will arrive in the US....

I hope these first few topics get the "conversation" started on the
SSA Convention!
Renny - Albuquerque, NM

On winching, insurance was a topic; roaming coverage for camps,
alternate locations, airport open houses, and air shows. Costello
Insurance and an AIG representative discuss product needs and
development during at least one breakfast and a luncheon. 'Hull'
coverage for the winches was also of interest. There were two
winching seminars and a discussion at the SSF meeting Weds evening.

There was also a round table discussion of a club audit by the IRS and
other club presentations. Why I instruct with Bob Wander was great.
Thanks also to Anne Mongiovi and Nieta Montague for their Promoting
Soaring presentations.

I thoroughly enjoyed the Jr Team talk by Kathy Fosha and Richard
Maleady and the discussions and ideas presented during the Getting
Kinds Into Soaring (Winch Roundtable) with Randy Rothe. The Good,
Bad, and Ugly, the state of soaring in 2008 with Bob Wander was
special. I'm not alone.

I think many enjoyed the evening trip to the SW Soaring Museum.
Missed the bus, so drove down and grabbed Bob Whelan and John Campbell
and headed for dinner on the way back. There are more in one or two
other buildings at the airport. At least one of the buses got
disoriented and had a tour in the dark of Moriarty Airport.

Pat Costello gave his always informative and enlightening insurance
talk. I missed the last few minutes and will have to follow up on a
couple of points that I heard about, one about winch liability.

Missed out on plenty due to being involved with Focus on Clubs track,
but good discussions and round tables there also. Others were very
pleased with the convention presentations overall. Enjoyed my fellow
banquet diners and seeing soaring friends. Interesting the banquet
speaker had arrived at the same actualizations about soaring that I
had, 'develop your bird brain' and 'be the sky' (well, he said 'be the
air'), but very much the same thing. He took a while to make the
points.

There were a couple of winch head dinners. Spent one evening chatting
with my Canadian cousins. They just love our politics.....

As always, too much to take it all in,

Frank Whiteley

What is the cost of a FLARM unit?


Darryl Ramm wrote:
If you read my write up about the convention you'll see I agree on
Transponders and PCAS. Flarm *might* have it's place as well (glider
to glider collision avoidance in contests/high glider traffic areas,
e.g. places like the White mountains). ADSB is the long term solution,
with such a long time until we see usable units in gliders that I
expect Flarm may get a beachhead in the USA. I'll buy a Flarm and see
for myself. If it discourages people adopting Transponders where they
should (and that's a lot more places than just Reno) then its a bad
thing. What would be interesting is a combined Zaon PCAS + Flarm unit.
People were asking about the possibility of this at the convention.

BTW I was flying a Duo Discus (with transponder installed and actually
turned on) coming south onto the north end of the Pinenuts when the
Hawker and ASG-29 collided, I spent a large part of that flight
discussing transponders with the other pilot flying in the Duo with
me. I was arguing pro, he was arguing did not make much difference. It
was a hell of a way to win an argument. My DG-303 and ASH-26E both
carry Becker transponders and Zaon MRX PCAS, and the club I used to be
a member of also had transponders in all of its gliders.


Darryl

On Feb 20, 10:22 pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
What is the cost of a FLARM unit?

Darryl Ramm wrote:
If you read my write up about the convention you'll see I agree on
Transponders and PCAS. Flarm *might* have it's place as well (glider
to glider collision avoidance in contests/high glider traffic areas,
e.g. places like the White mountains). ADSB is the long term solution,
with such a long time until we see usable units in gliders that I
expect Flarm may get a beachhead in the USA. I'll buy a Flarm and see
for myself. If it discourages people adopting Transponders where they
should (and that's a lot more places than just Reno) then its a bad
thing. What would be interesting is a combined Zaon PCAS + Flarm unit.
People were asking about the possibility of this at the convention.

BTW I was flying a Duo Discus (with transponder installed and actually
turned on) coming south onto the north end of the Pinenuts when the
Hawker and ASG-29 collided, I spent a large part of that flight
discussing transponders with the other pilot flying in the Duo with
me. I was arguing pro, he was arguing did not make much difference. It
was a hell of a way to win an argument. My DG-303 and ASH-26E both
carry Becker transponders and Zaon MRX PCAS, and the club I used to be
a member of also had transponders in all of its gliders.

Darryl

Greg,
The cost discussed was approx $ 845. for one unit. If a group got
together and ordered 10 or more, the price was estimated at $ 762.
This was based on the current Euro-$ exchange rate. Obviously this may
all change depending on their securing the needed US approvals,
working their legal/liability issues and securing dealers in the US,
but these were the tentative prices discussed at the convention...
Thanks - Renny

Darryl,

An excellent summary, thanks very much!

Bob

On Feb 20, 10:16 pm, Darryl Ramm wrote:
I wrote up a brief summary of what interested me, available hehttp://www.mindensoaringclub.com

I do not see FLARM in the US as it currently exists in Europe. However, a
FLARM type unit that is ADS-B compliant, and fits into the US ATC
architecture is definitely a possibility in the not too distant future.

The FLARM / ADS-B meeting resulted in some interesting information:

1. Cost is a critical issue, not just for the glider community, but also
for the GA market. FLARM has sold over 9,000 units, primarily in Europe,
due to their attractive pricing. An ADS-B compliant transceiver will need
to be priced $1,000 to get widespread voluntary adoption in the US.

2. The collision threat in the US is different than in Europe. Europe is
much more concerned with glider - glider collisions. The FLARM guys had a
very interesting slide showing OLC traces for last year superimposed on a
map of Europe. Due to the ATC restrictions in Europe, there are very high
densities of glider operations, not only in the alps, but in much of the
airspace accessible to gliders in the rest of Europe. In the US, we have a
much bigger issue with VFR Power and IFR traffic that is intermixed with
glider operations.

3. While the aviation trade press discusses ADS-B as expensive, and far
into the future, this may be an overly pessimistic assessment. MITRE has
developed a low cost ADS-B transmitter that is the size of a pack of
cigarettes, has a parts cost of about $175, and runs for 14 hours on a set
of 4 AA batteries. They are currently working on a fully functional
transceiver that will not only transmit ADS-B position vectors, but also
receive TIS-B traffic and weather data from ground stations. This
transceiver will interface with most existing graphical devices (including
Garmin 396, 496, See-You Mobile running on a PDA, etc....) to display other
aircraft including altitude, direction, and speed. If the aircraft is
within range of an ADS-B ground station, the transceiver will not only show
other ADS-B equipped aircraft, but all Mode C and Mode S equipped traffic
that is broadcast by the FAA ground station. The MITRE transceiver should
be available by September 08 and will be available under license to any
avionics vendor who is interested in commercializing it.

4. Currently, ADS-B ground stations are deployed along the east coast from
Boston to FL, covering almost 1/3 of all VFR traffic. Within the next 2
years, additional stations will be deployed in the Gulf of Mexico, along the
West Coast and in the Midwest (see www.adsb.gov for more details). Once
ADS-B transceivers are available at reasonable cost, voluntary deployment in
these areas can be expected to be rapid.

5. Contrary to popular belief, FLARM is not capable of reliably warning of
collision hazards between gliders flying in close proximity in a gaggle.
This is a result of accuracy limits available from commercial grade GPS
chips used in FLARM devices, as well as the speed with which a collision can
occur when there is an unexpected excursion from a glider's trajectory.
This will also be a limiting factor for low cost ADS-B transceivers. Even
with WAAS compatible aviation grade GPS components, the accuracy of ADS-B or
FLARM devices will not solve the gaggle problem.

6. One of the biggest challenges to the availability of low cost, low power
ADS-B transceivers will be regulatory issues relating to GPS accuracy and
integrity, and the necessity for certification of ADS-B transmitters. The
proposed ADS-B rules currently out for comments in the FAA's NPRM are
totally focused on IFR traffic requirements in high density Class B and
Class C airspaces. Provisions will have to be made in the ADS-B rules for
VFR only ADS-B transceivers for manufacturer's to hit the magic $1K price
ceiling.

Mike Schumann


"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message
...

I wrote up a brief summary of what interested me, available he
http://www.mindensoaringclub.com

Flarm in the USA is just a matter of time, they basically announced
their intent to enter the USA market and are talking to potential
dealers, etc.

Darryl

On Feb 20, 5:54 pm, Tim wrote:
Come on now, what where some of the highlights from this year's
convention for those of us stuck at home for various reasons. With no
convention next year, there should have been a lot of "new" stuff.
Usually RAS is full of post-convention

Some information I would love to hear about would be....

How'd the Flarm/ADS-B forum go?
Extreme Performance/Sinha De-turbulator update?
Duckhawk update?
Anything else of interest?

Really, anythign will do...

EY (sitting here with Baby...)




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