PowerFlarm at Region 9 Contest

Ramy, send me one and I'll install it. I won't, however, bend to peer
pressure and you can call me a bozo if you want. We have big skies around
Moriarty and, outside of contests, there are few gliders. I want protection
from transponder equipped aircraft.


"Ramy" wrote in message
...
On Monday, June 10, 2013 10:06:24 AM UTC-7, Mike the Strike wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2013 9:39:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:

On Monday, June 10, 2013 8:53:21 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:



Neither Flarm nor







transponder will protect against VFR aircraft not in contact with ATC.
PCAS







might work for that, however.



















I was under the impression that PowerFlarm (not Flarm) did that since it
receives Mode C replies. Is that not the case?



Yes, but I was replying to Dan who doesn't want a Flarm. We have lots of
aviation traffic going to small airfields that are not in contact with
ATC. Single-engine stuff is usually low down, but twins are often coming
in from a destination further away and descend through airspace near the
gliderport. They never seem to be looking out of their windows and won't
be aware of me unless they too have a PCAS.





Mike

Every now and then the argument of flarm vs transponder will come up. This
is like comparing apples to oranges. These are not alternative solutions.
Each has different purpose and each solution is highly desirable depend on
where you fly. Dan flies out of Moriarty so obviously both are desired.
Sooner or later those who insist on never installing a flarm will find
themselves less popular among their flying buddies who went through the
trouble of installing. You may hear on the radio "watch out for a bozo
flying around without flarm". My message to those who can afford a
powerflarm but don't think they need it: Install one anyway and turn the
display off if you want. At least we will be able to see and avoid you. You
may never know that it saved your butt.

Ramy

Dan,

It is not bending to peer pressure it is waking up to a important safety tool.
On a good weekend and some weekdays we have upwards of 20 gliders flying in the Moriarty airspace. Many are flying in the same areas as they are running shear lines and cloud streets for OLC points. We do have a big sky but often well populated routes.

On Monday, June 10, 2013 10:24:43 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Ramy, send me one and I'll install it. I won't, however, bend to peer pressure and you can call me a bozo if you want. We have big skies around Moriarty and, outside of contests, there are few gliders. I want protection from transponder equipped aircraft.

There is still a great deal of work to do on Flarm before it is a
truely trustworthy piece of equipment.
Ramy ... name calling is just what we don't want on these discussions.
Your Power Flarms should be able to detect and display a transponder
that is actively being interrogated by ATC radar. The last four times
I have flown in airspace with PowerFlarm equiped gliders and have been
close enough to the Flarm plane to be able to read the model name on
the side of the cockpit, the PowerFlarm pilot did not see me on their
display. I talked with each of those pilots on the radio. My
transponder is blinking like a WalMart christmas tree and they don't
see me. They don't see me with their eyes either !!!!!!! My
transponder has passed all the tests and the antenna radiates with no
detectable blind spots. There are still some significant problems
with antenna placement with Flarm, especially in aircraft that have
carbon fuselages. Then there is the wildcard of how pilots set the
parameters on their Flarms...or don't.

Guy Acheson "DDS"

My first near mid-air with a glider some years ago involved a run down a cloud street - I was returning and a colleague was outbound. We were in radio contact and knew of the potential conflict. When we met, I saw a brief flash of wing and as I started climbing and turning, he passed 20 feet under my wing without ever seeing me. Replaying our igc files showed that we were both cruising around 85 to 90 knots IAS and had a closing speed of close to 250mph. I saw him at a distance of a mile, or about 12 seconds before we passed. Flarm would have helped.

I was one of the PowerFlarm skeptics, but have now seen the benefits. Gliders not so equipped are likely to become pariahs, firstly being excluded from competition and later from clubs or FBOs. I would not be surprised if insurance companies also weighed in by offering discounts to Flarm-equipped gliders.

I would lump pilots who moan about mandated safety devices with motorcyclists who like the freedom to ride without a helmet, except the pilot may kill one of his buddies too.

Mike

Dan Marotta wrote, On 6/10/2013 9:24 PM:
I want protection from transponder equipped aircraft.

Maybe you meant TCAS equipped aircraft?

At least get an MRX, if you don't want a PowerFlarm. The MRX will warn
you of transponder equipped aircraft, most of which do not have TCAS.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

Thanks for understanding my position, Guy.

Robert and Mike, it's not about resistance to anything. As the Moriarty
folks know, I ride a motorcycle AND I wear a helmet though it's not required
in New Mexico. I make my decisions on my perceived need, not on the latest
promise of "safety". Sure I've seen claims of saves with Flarm, but I've
also seen a lot of complaints of it not living up to its promise.

I can appreciate its value in a crowded thermal; no argument other than the
sometimes missed alerts. I only flew one day during the contest. On
release, I found a really good thermal and other gliders, seeing me going up
so fast, came and joined. There were 4 or 5 as I recall. I left the
thermal and headed off in a non-task dirction. I didn't see another glider
all day. I generally fly alone or with one other glider and then we're in
constant communication. If we lose sight, we leave the thermal.

Look back at my OLC traces and you'll see that I don't follow the shear
lines all day to maximize speed and distance points. I fly for fun and I
enjoy exploring those places where the really fast guys don't go that often
because it slows them down.

And, no, I'm not talking about TCAS equipped aircraft. I mean ABQ Approach
sees me and vectors departing and arriving aircraft around me. I have
talked with them and done transponder checks to be sure they can see me -
they can! I also dragged my glider down to ABQ to the avionics shop to have
my installation checked. It works!

I know of at least one pilot at Moriarty who has a Flarm but refuses to
install a transponder. So he's protected from other Flarm or transponder
equipped gliders, but he's also invisible to ATC and TCAS. How smart is
that?


"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
...
Dan Marotta wrote, On 6/10/2013 9:24 PM:
I want protection from transponder equipped aircraft.

Maybe you meant TCAS equipped aircraft?

At least get an MRX, if you don't want a PowerFlarm. The MRX will warn you
of transponder equipped aircraft, most of which do not have TCAS.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email
me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

Dan, I think you don't completely understand what a PowerFlarm provides: It allows you to pick up other PF-equipped gliders, and provides collision warning if necessary (had a couple of those at R9 myself). But it also detects and displays transponder-equipped traffic, and Mode-S/ADS-b traffic. I saw several of those, including other gliders who had their PF in Stealth mode later in the contest.

A transponder is nice if you are in a situation where you can talk to center and they are talking to other traffic. But in some areas, everybody is VFR and not everybody is talking to center - how does center tell that VFR 1200 Bonanza to look for the glider squawking 1202? In your situation, you will have NO warning until he hopefully sees you and misses you. With a PF, I will get a non-directional PCAS warning with his altitude and approximate distance. Similar, but not as good (yet) as PCAS, but otherwise workable.

I agree the best is to have both PF and a Mode S transponder. But to say that the transponder alone gives you better protection from ALL traffic than a PF is wrong.

And really, you don't think you can maneuver away from an airliners flightpath with 2 - 3 miles warning? Funny, I haven't had that problem even with visual pickups of airliners.

Personally, I would like Flarm to be mandatory for ALL contests next year, just like a parachute. And encourage Stealt mode be turned off during regional contests - I found it a lot of fun to be aware of all the gliders around me. For nationals, OK, stealth up, but I've got a feeling that again (like team flying) we will be setting ourselves up for a beat-down at the World's!

Like Mike said earlier - this year at Moriarty we had one real close near-midair (7 ft separation), and at least one of those gliders didn't have a Flarm installed. Meanwhile, those of us with Flarm installed had several collision warnings that we resolved after being cued by the Flarm where to look.

I'm convinced. It works. And if really isn't that tough to install - plus it's easy to check the detection range online after a few flights with other Flarm-equipped gliders.

Kirk
66

No, Kirk, I think I *do* understand.

For *my* type of flying, I see no benefit to having warnings of
Flarm-equipped aircraft since I don't fly contests and I don't fly in the
busiest areas around Moriarty. Hell, I don't fly anywhere near other
gliders and I fly higher than all but a few GA aircraft so it's unlikely
I'll ever see an alert. You will see my Mode-S transponder if you get near
me and you'll turn away. There's no need for you to tell me. Besides, I'm
looking outside so I probably saw you any way.

I agree absolutely that Flarm should be mandatory at contests, along with
parachutes, and male external catheters. I don't care. I won't be there.

As to maneuvering, I once spotted a small dot on the horizon as I was
thermalling. Completing ONE revolution, I saw a B-767 maneuvering to avoid
me. Thank God he had head outside instead of up his ass staring at doo-dads
on his wonderful glass panel!

I don't expect ATC to talk to every light plane and warn him of my presence.
On the other hand, I don't see too many of them at the altitudes I fly.

Can no one understand that my interest is to have ATC vector IFR traffic
around me and that I have absolutely no interest in contests or gaggles or
(the glider equivalent of) oil burner routes?


"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...
Dan, I think you don't completely understand what a PowerFlarm provides: It
allows you to pick up other PF-equipped gliders, and provides collision
warning if necessary (had a couple of those at R9 myself). But it also
detects and displays transponder-equipped traffic, and Mode-S/ADS-b traffic.
I saw several of those, including other gliders who had their PF in Stealth
mode later in the contest.

A transponder is nice if you are in a situation where you can talk to center
and they are talking to other traffic. But in some areas, everybody is VFR
and not everybody is talking to center - how does center tell that VFR 1200
Bonanza to look for the glider squawking 1202? In your situation, you will
have NO warning until he hopefully sees you and misses you. With a PF, I
will get a non-directional PCAS warning with his altitude and approximate
distance. Similar, but not as good (yet) as PCAS, but otherwise workable.

I agree the best is to have both PF and a Mode S transponder. But to say
that the transponder alone gives you better protection from ALL traffic than
a PF is wrong.

And really, you don't think you can maneuver away from an airliners
flightpath with 2 - 3 miles warning? Funny, I haven't had that problem even
with visual pickups of airliners.

Personally, I would like Flarm to be mandatory for ALL contests next year,
just like a parachute. And encourage Stealt mode be turned off during
regional contests - I found it a lot of fun to be aware of all the gliders
around me. For nationals, OK, stealth up, but I've got a feeling that again
(like team flying) we will be setting ourselves up for a beat-down at the
World's!

Like Mike said earlier - this year at Moriarty we had one real close
near-midair (7 ft separation), and at least one of those gliders didn't
have a Flarm installed. Meanwhile, those of us with Flarm installed had
several collision warnings that we resolved after being cued by the Flarm
where to look.

I'm convinced. It works. And if really isn't that tough to install - plus
it's easy to check the detection range online after a few flights with other
Flarm-equipped gliders.

Kirk
66

On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 5:59:54 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
No, Kirk, I think I *do* understand.



For *my* type of flying, I see no benefit to having warnings of

Flarm-equipped aircraft since I don't fly contests and I don't fly in the

busiest areas around Moriarty. Hell, I don't fly anywhere near other

gliders and I fly higher than all but a few GA aircraft so it's unlikely

I'll ever see an alert. You will see my Mode-S transponder if you get near

me and you'll turn away. There's no need for you to tell me. Besides, I'm

looking outside so I probably saw you any way.



I agree absolutely that Flarm should be mandatory at contests, along with

parachutes, and male external catheters. I don't care. I won't be there.



As to maneuvering, I once spotted a small dot on the horizon as I was

thermalling. Completing ONE revolution, I saw a B-767 maneuvering to avoid

me. Thank God he had head outside instead of up his ass staring at doo-dads

on his wonderful glass panel!



I don't expect ATC to talk to every light plane and warn him of my presence.

On the other hand, I don't see too many of them at the altitudes I fly.



Can no one understand that my interest is to have ATC vector IFR traffic

around me and that I have absolutely no interest in contests or gaggles or

(the glider equivalent of) oil burner routes?





"kirk.stant" wrote in message

...

Dan, I think you don't completely understand what a PowerFlarm provides: It

allows you to pick up other PF-equipped gliders, and provides collision

warning if necessary (had a couple of those at R9 myself). But it also

detects and displays transponder-equipped traffic, and Mode-S/ADS-b traffic.

I saw several of those, including other gliders who had their PF in Stealth

mode later in the contest.



A transponder is nice if you are in a situation where you can talk to center

and they are talking to other traffic. But in some areas, everybody is VFR

and not everybody is talking to center - how does center tell that VFR 1200

Bonanza to look for the glider squawking 1202? In your situation, you will

have NO warning until he hopefully sees you and misses you. With a PF, I

will get a non-directional PCAS warning with his altitude and approximate

distance. Similar, but not as good (yet) as PCAS, but otherwise workable.



I agree the best is to have both PF and a Mode S transponder. But to say

that the transponder alone gives you better protection from ALL traffic than

a PF is wrong.



And really, you don't think you can maneuver away from an airliners

flightpath with 2 - 3 miles warning? Funny, I haven't had that problem even

with visual pickups of airliners.



Personally, I would like Flarm to be mandatory for ALL contests next year,

just like a parachute. And encourage Stealt mode be turned off during

regional contests - I found it a lot of fun to be aware of all the gliders

around me. For nationals, OK, stealth up, but I've got a feeling that again

(like team flying) we will be setting ourselves up for a beat-down at the

World's!



Like Mike said earlier - this year at Moriarty we had one real close

near-midair (7 ft separation), and at least one of those gliders didn't

have a Flarm installed. Meanwhile, those of us with Flarm installed had

several collision warnings that we resolved after being cued by the Flarm

where to look.



I'm convinced. It works. And if really isn't that tough to install - plus

it's easy to check the detection range online after a few flights with other

Flarm-equipped gliders.



Kirk

66

Dan,

More than you may think understand your position and agree with you. They see no point to be chastised is all. I had a choice between a Flarm and transponder and chose the transponder-a lowly mode C - what I could afford.

Mike

On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 6:56:35 PM UTC-7, mike wrote:

PowerFlarm works best if most gliders use it. Offering not to fly when more than a few glider are airborne or promising not to climb in the areas of good lift, while generous offers, strain credulity a bit.

I expect a fair amount of sincere rationalizing between now and broad Flarm adoption in the US. It's a free country, but I will continue to encourage as many of my soaring friends to voluntarily adopt Flarm as I can. 100% adoption at contests is the short-term goal.

9B