Ta-152H at low altitudes

For the experts:

As made obvious by its wings, the Ta-152H was designed as a
high-altitude interceptor. But I am interested in how the Ta-152H
handled at low-to-medium altitudes. How did the Ta-152H compare with
the Fw-190D at such alts? I suppose the ultra-long wings of the Ta
considerably reduced rollrate? Did the Ta have increased
manuverability/tighter turning circle at low alts? (Was wing-loading
increased or decreased?) What about low-speed & stall characteristics?

(N-6) wrote in message . com...
For the experts:

As made obvious by its wings, the Ta-152H was designed as a
high-altitude interceptor. But I am interested in how the Ta-152H
handled at low-to-medium altitudes. How did the Ta-152H compare with
the Fw-190D at such alts? I suppose the ultra-long wings of the Ta
considerably reduced rollrate? Did the Ta have increased
manuverability/tighter turning circle at low alts? (Was wing-loading
increased or decreased?) What about low-speed & stall characteristics?


From what I've gleaned form this newsgroup the TA152 had the following
characteristics.
1 The large laminar flow wings gave The TA152 good manoeverability
unlike the the FW190D had reduced manoeverability compared to the
radial engined FW190A becuase it has the same wings but a heavier
engine leading to high wing loading.
2 Because of their large span the roll rate was reduced compared to
the 190D which itself had less than the FW190A (regarded as one of
the fastest rollers of the war)
3 The laminar flow wing and the powerfull engine gave the TA152 a
high speed and a high rate of climb. The engine had both Water
Methanol MW50 boosting for low altitudes and GM1 Nitrous oxide
boosting for high altitudes.
4 The aircraft had a pretty good range.

TA152s were used to protect Me262 on takeoff and landing becuase the
underdeveloped Jumo 004B Jet engines had very restricted acceleration
and could easily be bounced by allied aircraft. It is said that when
TA152s were in the air no Me262s were ever lost.


The aircarft could opperate at 470mph and at altitudes of nearly
45,000 ft and had a pressursied cabin. It was designed to take on
B29s. With an Armament of 4 x 20mm and 1 x 30mm cannon it had the
power to do so.

TA152s were used to protect Me262 on takeoff and landing becuase the
underdeveloped Jumo 004B Jet engines had very restricted acceleration
and could easily be bounced by allied aircraft.

The 004 were outstanding engines and few suffered failures in the test
programme. Unfortunately, or fortunately, wartime shortages meant that the
production 004B would have subtle differences to the hand-built 004s in use
previously, with the end result that they sucked. Still, they didn't suck as
bad as history makes us believe - air starts WERE possible, and if pilots
minded their pre-flight instructions, problems were rare. Of greater
importance, the landing gear rate of failure and production defects (caused by
using slave labor) were appalling.

It is said that when
TA152s were in the air no Me262s were ever lost.

The airfield protection Staffeln used VERY few Ta 152s - instead, most were the
later marks of FW 190 D-series. Ta 152 high-altitude interceptors don't help
much when you are trying to protect low and slow "Turbos" in the traffic
pattern from Mustangs. The specialized, low alt Ta 152 might have done better,
but there were few to be had.

The aircarft could opperate at 470mph and at altitudes of nearly
45,000 ft and had a pressursied cabin. It was designed to take on
B29s.

Hard to believe. The RLM didn't field aircraft for non-existant threats; quite
the opposite, they rarely reacted in a timely fashion to actual, present
threats. The Ta 152 series was not intended specifically to counter the B-29 -
the great speed of the Tank fighter was intended to be used against Mustangs
and Mosquitos, and other fast targets that could not adequately be countered by
more conventional fighters, such as the tired old "Me". The Ta would have made
a fine bomber destroyer, but its not likely it was designed and fielded with
the B-29 in mind.

With an Armament of 4 x 20mm and 1 x 30mm cannon it had the
power to do so.

Few carried that armament, and the Ta 152 program was cancelled before the war
ended, while the Do 335 remained on the construction orders right to the end.
I believe if the B-29 ever arrived over Europe during the war, it would have
been met by the Dornier and the Me 262, which were the fighters that were still
intended to be built as of late April 45.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

Contrary to legend, the Ta 152H did not have a laminar flow wing. I
have Focke Wulf documents showing that the wing used the same NACA
5-digit airfoils as the Fw 190. My "Incomplete Guide to Airfoil Usage"
gives the airfoil designations.

Fw 190 aces of the western front - Osprey - reads : "the marked increase in
span (over the D9) gave the aircraft a very tight turning circle and a
fantastic climb capability - 15m/s and a ceiling of 14000m". This being the
testimony of a german pilot.
Oberfeldwebel Josef Keil was the sole Ta-152 ace in the war (he flew Ta152
with the JG 301 till the end of the war).

As made obvious by its wings, the Ta-152H was designed as a
high-altitude interceptor. But I am interested in how the Ta-152H
handled at low-to-medium altitudes. How did the Ta-152H compare with
the Fw-190D at such alts? I suppose the ultra-long wings of the Ta
considerably reduced rollrate? Did the Ta have increased
manuverability/tighter turning circle at low alts? (Was wing-loading
increased or decreased?) What about low-speed & stall characteristics?

I recall reading something about another development, the Ta153. Where,
if anywhere, would this version fit into the discussion? Was it
intended to fill a lower-altitude role?

I recall reading something about another development, the Ta153. Where,
if anywhere, would this version fit into the discussion? Was it
intended to fill a lower-altitude role?

The 8-153 projekt roughly approximates what would eventually turn into the Ta
152 H, a high alt interceptor.

David Lednicer wrote in message ...
Contrary to legend, the Ta 152H did not have a laminar flow wing. I
have Focke Wulf documents showing that the wing used the same NACA
5-digit airfoils as the Fw 190. My "Incomplete Guide to Airfoil Usage"
gives the airfoil designations.


ADD: I have read somewhere the Globe Swift used the same NACA airfoil
as the 190 (or vice versa) - is that so?
Also - from all I have read laminar flow is delightful in theory and
essentially unobtainable/maintainable in practice. Dirt, bugs and
hangar rash all mitigate against it.
Walt BJ

nt (Gordon) wrote in message ...

TA152s were used to protect Me262 on takeoff and landing becuase the
underdeveloped Jumo 004B Jet engines had very restricted acceleration
and could easily be bounced by allied aircraft.

The 004 were outstanding engines and few suffered failures in the test
programme. Unfortunately, or fortunately, wartime shortages meant that the
production 004B would have subtle differences to the hand-built 004s in use
previously, with the end result that they sucked. Still, they didn't suck as
bad as history makes us believe - air starts WERE possible, and if pilots
minded their pre-flight instructions, problems were rare. Of greater
importance, the landing gear rate of failure and production defects (caused by
using slave labor) were appalling.

The Jumo 004D had entered production but not service and by accounts
it was to be significantly more reliable and easier to opperate.



It is said that when
TA152s were in the air no Me262s were ever lost.

The airfield protection Staffeln used VERY few Ta 152s - instead, most were
the later marks of FW 190 D-series. Ta 152 high-altitude interceptors don't help much when you are trying to protect low and slow "Turbos" in the traffic
pattern from Mustangs. The specialized, low alt Ta 152 might have
done better, but there were few to be had.

I suspect the TA152 pilots simply relied on their marginaly superior
speed and flak corridors. Probably these were some of the more
experienced pilots.


The aircarft could opperate at 470mph and at altitudes of nearly
45,000 ft and had a pressursied cabin. It was designed to take on
B29s.

Hard to believe. The RLM didn't field aircraft for non-existant threats;
quite the opposite, they rarely reacted in a timely fashion to actual, present
threats. The Ta 152 series was not intended specifically to counter the
B-29 - the great speed of the Tank fighter was intended to be used against
Mustangs and Mosquitos, and other fast targets that could not adequately
be countered by more conventional fighters, such as the tired old "Me".
The Ta would have made a fine bomber destroyer, but its not likely it was
designed and fielded with the B-29 in mind.

The B29 wasn't a non existant threat since it was in use against
Japan. The B29 was almost impune against interception by most
japanese aircaft types but it would have fared less well against the
Luftwaffe, nevertheless it still would have been much more difficult
to intercept becuase of its speed.

There is a story that the Night Fighter version of the Ju 388 were
built to counter a spoof RAF plan to bomb from the stratosphere at
night thus wasting Luftwaffe resources. Certainly the Ju388 would
also have been capable of a night time interception of a B29 class
aircraft but it was never needed.

Most of the RLMs (I don't blame the Luftwaffe so much) bad procurment
options seem to have come out of a directives built around an
assumption of victory within 2 years. Understandable but risky
reasoning as a war extending beyond that would exhaust the resource
poorer and outnumbered Reich so they poured their energies into a
sucker punch with the technology that they had. It failed.

That combined with delays in the Jumo 004B and the Jumo 222 piston
engine meant that they were at a qualitative disadvantage. By 1943
the Me262 should have been in service and the Ju288 bomber with a
speed of 408mph, 8800lb internal bombload and powerfull remote
controlled armament should also have been in service. The Jumo 004B
was the main delay in Me262 availability and the Jumo 222 only entered
production right at the end of the war for whatever reason.



With an Armament of 4 x 20mm and 1 x 30mm cannon it had the
power to do so.

Few carried that armament,

Some I beleive carried the higher velocity Mk 151/15 15mm cannon
instead of the Mk151/20mm cannon. The low velocity Mk108 30mm cannon
was carried but some version may have reached the front with the much
heavier Mk103 long barrelled 30mm cannon. I can only assumed some
versions carried the old FW190D armament.



and the Ta 152 program was cancelled before the war
ended,

I think a very large number of programs were cancelled in the last 2
months of the war.


while the Do 335 remained on the construction orders right to the end.
I believe if the B-29 ever arrived over Europe during the war, it would have
been met by the Dornier and the Me 262, which were the fighters that were
still intended to be built as of late April 45.

It certainly was a heavily armed aricraft wich could carry high
velocity weapons. (4 x Mk151/15 or 20/ and 1 x Mk103)

The problem this aircraft had was its nose prop which required a
pairing of two aircraft in a zwilling (double mustan arrangement) for
the radardome or antenna built into the leading edge of the wing. (By
this time the FuG 244 microwave radars were intended for
nightfighters)




v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

TA152s were used to protect Me262 on takeoff and landing becuase the
underdeveloped Jumo 004B Jet engines had very restricted acceleration
and could easily be bounced by allied aircraft. It is said that when
TA152s were in the air no Me262s were ever lost.


Not all Ta 152s were used in that role. JV 44s Fockes were 4 190D-9s
and a single 190D-11.
As far as performance was concerned the Ta 152 in 1945 was inferior to
the latest Mark of Spitfire under 30,000 ft. Between 30,000-35,000 ft
the aircraft were equal. Above 35,000 ft the Ta 152 was superior all
the way up to 50,000 ft!

Rob

p.s. The Ta 152 was also fitted with a LGW-Siemens K23 autopilot to
reduce pilot fatigue.