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#31
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flaps again
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ... Blueskies wrote: "B A R R Y" wrote in message ... On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash wrote: Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"? My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure. Exactly! Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an emergency? :-)) -- Dudley Henriques Well, no, because there are no flaps on them. May be a bit extreme, but that is the way we used to teach it. If it's got flaps, then use them for all 'normal' landings... |
#32
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flaps again
Blueskies wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message ... Blueskies wrote: "B A R R Y" wrote in message ... On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash wrote: Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"? My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure. Exactly! Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an emergency? :-)) -- Dudley Henriques Well, no, because there are no flaps on them. May be a bit extreme, but that is the way we used to teach it. If it's got flaps, then use them for all 'normal' landings... Absolutely. If you got um use um by all means. It's all in the manner of approach to the issue (no pun intended :-). The point I'm making is simply that a no flap landing doesn't HAVE to be only an emergency procedure. It can also be treated as a normal landing done at a pilot's discretion in conditions where a no flap landing might be expeditious. We used them all the time at a field we used that had a nice long runway with a turn off at the end that was optimum to use to visit the local coffee shop. Not only was is expeditious to land with no flaps, but it was the perfect opportunity to practice a no flap landing. Some instructors like the black and white approach to flight instruction. I have never been a huge fan of this approach to teaching flying. If I have a student learning in a 150 Cessna, naturally I want that student to be using flaps as a normal way to land that airplane. On the other hand, I don't want to teach that student to fly a Cessna 150. I want to teach that student to fly an AIRPLANE. This means that if that student gets his certificate, then goes over to airport B and wants to rent a Decathlon, I don't want him going over there thinking that landing an airplane with no flaps is strictly an emergency situation. I want him thinking simply that the Decathlon lands with no flaps and that's no big deal, as he's already learned that this is normal behavior and has as well been thoroughly acclimated as to what to expect in different behavior from such an airplane. It's no big deal really, and is all in how an instructor deals with these issues. Nothing I've described here takes away from the fact that if a pilot flying an airplane equipped with flaps can't lower them for some reason, that this situation isn't handled as an unusual landing for THAT airplane and as such can be classified as an "emergency procedure" for THAT airplane. -- Dudley Henriques |
#33
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flaps again
On 1 Jan, 17:14, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Roy Smith wrote: In article , *Dudley Henriques wrote: No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over the aspects of no flap landings with every student. I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the student must be completely familiar with before solo. The issue with no flaps landings is not that the landing itself is an emergency, but that the pilot should recognize that the flaps didn't extend and adjust his plan accordingly. *And understand the performance implications. Like many CFI's who came up during my period, (old people :-) I much preferred to teach no flap landings to students as BOTH a possible emergency AND an option that could be used by a good pilot who for a viable and safe reason wanted to land long for a far end turnoff on an exceptionally long runway for example. Many of the airplanes we flew as trainers had no flaps; i.e. Cubs, Colts, etc. You learned early on in these airplanes to fly the approach properly and with no "devices" to help you control the landing speed. These airplanes are still in use today and in many cases are priced low enough that many students becoming aircraft owners for the first time will end up purchasing an aircraft with no flaps. I personally know two pilots who own a J3 and a Piper Colt; each have no flaps. Flaps and their use are VERY aircraft specific. In some airplanes a POH might define a no flap landing as an emergency. Others simply alter the approach profile a bit. In the T38 Talon for example, (I use this as the airplane is extremely high performance and landing cfg is critical for the Talon) the procedure for a no flap landing is to add 15kts to the normal landing speed...period! No big deal at all. Landing a normal GA airplane with no flaps should not pose a good pilot any problems at all, and training should reflect this. The bottom line is that instructors should teach landings in a way that defines every one of them as a unique experience dealing with a unique and ever changing dynamic. No two landings that a pilot will make during an entire career will ever be exactly the same. Each landing carries its own individual fingerprint. No flaps can be an emergency landing or it can simply be a pilot's option. Either way, the pilot should be on top of it and have each individual landing planned based on current conditions existing for any given instant in time that pertain to THAT landing. Hear hear. I've often met pilots who use no flaps on landing in very gusty conditions or stiff crosswinds. I've tried this and don't really see the benifits. Like a lot of things it's probably mostly in the head. I think the higher touchdown speeds invovlved and the resultant float only prolong the agony. Having said that, any pilot should be able to fly his airplane in any reasonable configuration it might end up in and this should be taught as a matter of course. I did some instruction in Cherokees(most of my instruction was in Cubs) and found the flaps were confusing the issue when the students were learning landings. I opted to do most of them flapless and this porved quite productive. the problem was, none of the other instructors were teaching this and it was off the page for the school, so I kept it to a minimum. Bertie |
#34
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flaps again
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote: Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an emergency? :-)) His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an emergency. The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to have the right flap fall completely off. G |
#35
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flaps again
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
On 1 Jan, 17:14, Dudley Henriques wrote: Roy Smith wrote: In article , Dudley Henriques wrote: No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over the aspects of no flap landings with every student. I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the student must be completely familiar with before solo. The issue with no flaps landings is not that the landing itself is an emergency, but that the pilot should recognize that the flaps didn't extend and adjust his plan accordingly. And understand the performance implications. Like many CFI's who came up during my period, (old people :-) I much preferred to teach no flap landings to students as BOTH a possible emergency AND an option that could be used by a good pilot who for a viable and safe reason wanted to land long for a far end turnoff on an exceptionally long runway for example. Many of the airplanes we flew as trainers had no flaps; i.e. Cubs, Colts, etc. You learned early on in these airplanes to fly the approach properly and with no "devices" to help you control the landing speed. These airplanes are still in use today and in many cases are priced low enough that many students becoming aircraft owners for the first time will end up purchasing an aircraft with no flaps. I personally know two pilots who own a J3 and a Piper Colt; each have no flaps. Flaps and their use are VERY aircraft specific. In some airplanes a POH might define a no flap landing as an emergency. Others simply alter the approach profile a bit. In the T38 Talon for example, (I use this as the airplane is extremely high performance and landing cfg is critical for the Talon) the procedure for a no flap landing is to add 15kts to the normal landing speed...period! No big deal at all. Landing a normal GA airplane with no flaps should not pose a good pilot any problems at all, and training should reflect this. The bottom line is that instructors should teach landings in a way that defines every one of them as a unique experience dealing with a unique and ever changing dynamic. No two landings that a pilot will make during an entire career will ever be exactly the same. Each landing carries its own individual fingerprint. No flaps can be an emergency landing or it can simply be a pilot's option. Either way, the pilot should be on top of it and have each individual landing planned based on current conditions existing for any given instant in time that pertain to THAT landing. Hear hear. I've often met pilots who use no flaps on landing in very gusty conditions or stiff crosswinds. I've tried this and don't really see the benifits. Like a lot of things it's probably mostly in the head. I think the higher touchdown speeds invovlved and the resultant float only prolong the agony. Having said that, any pilot should be able to fly his airplane in any reasonable configuration it might end up in and this should be taught as a matter of course. I did some instruction in Cherokees(most of my instruction was in Cubs) and found the flaps were confusing the issue when the students were learning landings. I opted to do most of them flapless and this porved quite productive. the problem was, none of the other instructors were teaching this and it was off the page for the school, so I kept it to a minimum. Bertie I'm short enough that even sitting on a seat chute, in the Mustang, I lowered 20 degrees of flap on downwind just to see over the damn nose :-)) -- Dudley Henriques |
#36
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flaps again
B A R R Y wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques wrote: Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an emergency? :-)) His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an emergency. The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to have the right flap fall completely off. G Now THAT would be an attention getter for the average Sunday pilot in a big hurry :-)) -- Dudley Henriques |
#37
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flaps again
In rec.aviation.student Dudley Henriques wrote:
Blueskies wrote: "B A R R Y" wrote in message ... On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash wrote: Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"? My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure. Exactly! Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an emergency? :-)) No more than every landing made in a glider is an emergency. -- Michael Ash Rogue Amoeba Software |
#38
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flaps again
"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message ... and found the flaps were confusing the issue when the students were learning landings. I opted to do most of them flapless and this porved quite productive. the problem was, none of the other instructors were teaching this and it was off the page for the school, so I kept it to a minimum. It is amazing how attitudes change over time and how certain flying procedures become part of our culture. If I recall correctly, it was some time back in the 70's when some FAA bureaucrat made a PTS change decreeing that a normal landing was to be with full flaps. Before that, flap use was taught as something that was much more at the pilot's option. The change caused quite a furor at the time. Some instructors thought that full flap landings were much too advanced for mere student pilots! Vaughn |
#39
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flaps again
Roy Smith wrote:
In article , Michael Ash wrote: Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"? When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a PA-28) and refuse to move it :-) That's what the proverbial D-cell flash light is for (preferably a mag-lite). |
#40
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flaps again
Dudley wrote:
No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over the aspects of no flap landings with every student. I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the student must be completely familiar with before solo. I was in the pattern at night with a student in a C172 at RHV and we had a total electrical failure. No lights, no flaps, ... I had him hold a flashlight at the ASI and call out airspeeds, I then did a glassy water landing - worked perfectly! Hilton |
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