flaps again

On Jan 2, 9:15 pm, wrote:
On Jan 2, 4:35 pm, Michael wrote:

Which brings us to the one (and only) difference between landing flaps
up and gear up. Gear up is expensive, every time. Flaps up is
actually more likely to be fatal (as in, you get too slow in a turn)
but most of the time it costs nothing at all except some extra runway,
which is free. That's it.

Unless you are landing on a minimal runway, as we often do
out here in the Canadian west. An inadvertent flaps-up landing can get
really messy at the far end, depending on the obstacles that might be
there.

Not really, you just need to learn how to land better,
making use of flare and ground effect.
Landing with zero flaps, needs a tricky extended flare
and once the tires are on the runway, keep the nose up,
with pitch control to the elevator, that way the entire
main wing operates as an air brake.
Be very gentle on wheel braking control because that
will lower the nose, and you want the nose as high
as possible, while rolling.

Once the nose falls, it's hard to get it up because of
the relation of the CM to the wheel contact point on
the ground. At a high AOA, the CM is pretty close
to the vertical location of the wheel contact point,
and the elevator is effective.

The key is to understand the wheel contact point in
relation to the CM. Most A/C with tricycle gear are
designed to keep the weight on the mains and keep
the forward lightly loaded.
Ken

On 2008-01-01 21:48:18 -0800, Brian said:

snip
* *It is amazing how attitudes change over time and how certain flying

procedures become part of our culture.

* *If I recall correctly, it was some time back in the 70's when some
FAA
bureaucrat made a PTS change decreeing that a normal landing was to be wit
h full
flaps. *Before that, flap use was taught as something that was much more
at the
pilot's option. *The change caused quite a furor at the time. *Some in
structors
thought that full flap landings were much too advanced for mere student pi
lots!

Vaughn


My observation on this is that there are instructors that learned to
fly at large flight schools catering to teaching airline pilots. The
thing to remember is that these flight training schools are not
teaching these pilots to fly
single pilot single engine airplanes. Instead they use a Cessna 172 as
a 737 simulator and teach their students to fly a C-172 like it was a
737. The result is that these pilots do learn to make full flap
landings every time and no flap landings are an emergercy procedure as
they would be in a Boeing 737. This is an excellent and efficient
method to train airline pilots. (As a side thought I wonder if this
may have been some of the motivation behind Cessna removing the 40
degree flap setting, Since about the time they did that some of thier
biggest customers were these flight schools)

I have not observed this. The flight academies teach you to follow the
checklist that comes in the POH, not fly a 172 as if it was a 737. If
they taught you to fly the 172 like a 737, they would teach crosswind
landings differently. So I question your whole premise and the
conclusions that follow from it.


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On 2008-01-01 14:08:09 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.



Exactly!

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

Oh, I don't know. Maybe I am just unlucky, but I have had several flap
failures in a Cessna 172. It never seemed like an emergency to me -- at
most, an annoyance.

One thing I do when the flaps fail is check to see if my radios are
still working, just to make sure I don't have a power failure.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On 2008-01-01 15:04:33 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

B A R R Y wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an
emergency.
The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer
Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to
have the right flap fall completely off. G

Now THAT would be an attention getter for the average Sunday pilot in a
big hurry :-))

One day I went out to preflight a Cessna 172 and the right wing flap
was folded up like a taco. The solo student who had flown the plane
previously claimed that he had not noticed anything wrong, but that he
had heard a "grinding noise," so he did a few more touch and goes and
then quit early. The flap had jumped the tracks and folded up in
flight. It appears that the student made three more landings after the
flap folded up. For the record, he was not my student.

--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On Dec 31 2007, 2:39*pm, B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless, short
field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

* *Not flapless.

I had to.

Even if you don't have to demonstrate it, you ought to have been
trained in how to do it.

I was wondering: in the aircraft of the OP, do the flaps not make a
noise when deploying? After reading the post, I realized that I have
typically relied on three things to know the flaps are down: the sound
of them deploying, the change in pitch that comes with flap
deployment, and, as I get out toward turning base, I'm looking back to
check my position in relation to the numbers. When I do that I see the
flaps down.

That should also work with most low wings, no? I guess there might be
some flap designs where you couldn't see that on small GA aircraft.

Thanks for the post as it makes me realize I have not paid enough
attention to this critical operation. Since flaps have always deployed
when I asked them to, I haven't thought about double checking. Far
from calling the OP guy a moron, I got to thank him for raising my
awareness on this.

Piloting is complex, and as Bertie points out, we all f0k up. On my
checkride what the examiner was looking for was: identify the error
and correct.

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2008-01-01 15:04:33 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

B A R R Y wrote:
On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 17:08:09 -0500, Dudley Henriques
wrote:

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

His exam focus was more about how flaps alter the landing than an
emergency.
The only "flap emergency" I've ever heard of belonged to a Musketeer
Sport who parks behind us. He kicked out the first notch, only to
have the right flap fall completely off. G

Now THAT would be an attention getter for the average Sunday pilot in
a big hurry :-))

One day I went out to preflight a Cessna 172 and the right wing flap was
folded up like a taco. The solo student who had flown the plane
previously claimed that he had not noticed anything wrong, but that he
had heard a "grinding noise," so he did a few more touch and goes and
then quit early. The flap had jumped the tracks and folded up in flight.
It appears that the student made three more landings after the flap
folded up. For the record, he was not my student.

Kind of makes you wonder who's teaching people to fly in such a way that
the end result would be a student who hears something unusual in his
airplane and takes off without knowing or obviously caring what it is.
Unbelievable!! :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

C J Campbell wrote:
On 2008-01-01 14:08:09 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which
would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.



Exactly!

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

Oh, I don't know. Maybe I am just unlucky, but I have had several flap
failures in a Cessna 172. It never seemed like an emergency to me -- at
most, an annoyance.

One thing I do when the flaps fail is check to see if my radios are
still working, just to make sure I don't have a power failure.

We sat and watched two guys land a transient 172 one day each one
pushing out the door on his side of the airplane on final.
We asked them why they were doing this and they said the flap motor was
broken and they wanted to fly that day. They were using the doors as a
speed brake. :-))


--
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques writes:

Flaps and their use are VERY aircraft specific. In some airplanes a POH
might define a no flap landing as an emergency.

I recall a Usenet post from a crew member in a Buff that, while over
Illinois, lost hydraulics for both flaps and brakes. Ooops.

They got a refill and made it to Edwards lake bed before dark.
They coasted a long time before stopping...


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On Jan 4, 6:17 am, Dudley Henriques wrote:
C J Campbell wrote:
On 2008-01-01 14:08:09 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:

Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which
would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

Exactly!

Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))

Oh, I don't know. Maybe I am just unlucky, but I have had several flap
failures in a Cessna 172. It never seemed like an emergency to me -- at
most, an annoyance.

One thing I do when the flaps fail is check to see if my radios are
still working, just to make sure I don't have a power failure.

We sat and watched two guys land a transient 172 one day each one
pushing out the door on his side of the airplane on final.
We asked them why they were doing this and they said the flap motor was
broken and they wanted to fly that day. They were using the doors as a
speed brake. :-))


Sounds like a reasonable idea -if one thinks an extra 10k landing
speed is going to be a BIG problem for the field. On the other hand,
I'd be worried anout the disrupted airflow over the elevator. What do
you think?

Cheers

WingFlaps wrote:
On Jan 4, 6:17 am, Dudley Henriques wrote:
C J Campbell wrote:
On 2008-01-01 14:08:09 -0800, Dudley Henriques said:
Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:
Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which
would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?
My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.
Exactly!
Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an
emergency? :-))
Oh, I don't know. Maybe I am just unlucky, but I have had several flap
failures in a Cessna 172. It never seemed like an emergency to me -- at
most, an annoyance.
One thing I do when the flaps fail is check to see if my radios are
still working, just to make sure I don't have a power failure.
We sat and watched two guys land a transient 172 one day each one
pushing out the door on his side of the airplane on final.
We asked them why they were doing this and they said the flap motor was
broken and they wanted to fly that day. They were using the doors as a
speed brake. :-))


Sounds like a reasonable idea -if one thinks an extra 10k landing
speed is going to be a BIG problem for the field. On the other hand,
I'd be worried anout the disrupted airflow over the elevator. What do
you think?

Cheers

This was the gist of the discussion at the flight office that afternoon.
The doors are indeed inline and this could indeed cause a problem.
Needless to say we mentioned it to them before they left to go home.
I think we "sold them" when we pointed out that both runways...ours and
theirs....were more than long enough for no flap landings without all
the additional fuss associated with the doors :-))


--
Dudley Henriques