Soaring vs. Flapping

"Bob Kuykendall" wrote
Earlier, (Corrie) wrote:

...
Beautiful plus useless equals useless...

You just made this thread worth my time. Thanks!


I don't get no respect!

sniff

Eric

Earlier, "Eric Miller" wrote:

I don't get no respect!

Oops, my bad. I see in reviewing this thread that you deserve credit for:

Beautiful plus useless equals useless...

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.

"I think there is a man powered airplane somewhere. I remember reading
that a college class had built it to meet a challenge of flying a 1/4
mile (or thereabouts) course. It looked like a giant ultralight with a
huge wingspan and was powered by a man (in very good shape) using a
pedal system to drive the propeller. Totally impractical as a flying
machine, but interesting anyway. Perhaps someone in the group will
remember more about this accomplishment.
Mike

In article ,
(Mike) wrote:

"I think there is a man powered airplane somewhere. I remember reading
that a college class had built it to meet a challenge of flying a 1/4
mile (or thereabouts) course. It looked like a giant ultralight with a
huge wingspan and was powered by a man (in very good shape) using a
pedal system to drive the propeller. Totally impractical as a flying
machine, but interesting anyway. Perhaps someone in the group will
remember more about this accomplishment.
Mike

About 20 years ago I helped (in a very small way) on the Icarus Project,
which was the successful man-powered flight from Crete to Santorini, a
distance of about 70 miles.

Unfortunately, the craft was lost in the surf on a nude beach at
Santorini, so only a few artifacts survie. I saw a couple of them in a
display case at Silver Hill a couple of years ago.

"Mike" wrote in message
m...
"I think there is a man powered airplane somewhere. I remember reading
that a college class had built it to meet a challenge of flying a 1/4
mile (or thereabouts) course. It looked like a giant ultralight with a
huge wingspan and was powered by a man (in very good shape) using a
pedal system to drive the propeller. Totally impractical as a flying
machine, but interesting anyway. Perhaps someone in the group will
remember more about this accomplishment.
Mike

You're thinking about the Gossamer Condor, which won the Kremer 50,000 pound
prize for flying over a figure 8 course 1977, followed by the 1979 crossing
of the English Channel to win the Kremer 100,000 pound prize by the Gossamer
Albatross.
Both were designed by Paul MacCready Jr and piloted by Bryan Allen.

Only impractical in that Bryan Allen was a trained cyclist whereas most of
us are not.
Both amazing design and athletic feats.

At the time of the challenge, the Gossamer Condor weighed 70 pounds, the
pilot weighed 137 pounds.
Wing span: 96 feet
Wing area: 760 sq ft.
Aspect ratio: 12.8
The wings were covered with 1/2 mil mylar sheet on top and 1/4 mil mylar
sheets on the bottom.
Canard area 93 sq ft.
Length: 30 ft.
Height 18 ft.
Prop diameter: 12 ft.

The total flight path was 1.35 miles, while the Kremer circuit itself was
1.15 miles flown in 6 minutes and 22.5 seconds for an average speed of 10.82
miles per hour.

Don't have the figures for the Gossamer Albatross handy right now.

Eric

In article ,
Mike wrote:
"I think there is a man powered airplane somewhere. I remember reading
that a college class had built it to meet a challenge of flying a 1/4
mile (or thereabouts) course. It looked like a giant ultralight with a
huge wingspan and was powered by a man (in very good shape) using a
pedal system to drive the propeller. Totally impractical as a flying
machine, but interesting anyway. Perhaps someone in the group will
remember more about this accomplishment.
Mike

There's the "Gossamer Albatross", that, in 1979 managed a *man*powered*
flight across the English Channel. details available via google.

In article ,
(Robert Bonomi) wrote:

In article ,
Mike wrote:
"I think there is a man powered airplane somewhere. I remember reading
that a college class had built it to meet a challenge of flying a 1/4
mile (or thereabouts) course. It looked like a giant ultralight with a
huge wingspan and was powered by a man (in very good shape) using a
pedal system to drive the propeller. Totally impractical as a flying
machine, but interesting anyway. Perhaps someone in the group will
remember more about this accomplishment.
Mike

There's the "Gossamer Albatross", that, in 1979 managed a *man*powered*
flight across the English Channel. details available via google.

In addition, there was the Daedalus, which flew man-powered, from Crete
to Santorini. I knew some of the principals and even did a little work
on it. These guys were mostly MIT grads an really had their low-speed
aero in hand. Unfortunately, all that is left of the craft is in a small
display case at Silver Hill (pedals, gearbox and a few miscellaneous
pieces), as the craft landed in the surf at a nude beach and broke apart.

Does anyone else find it strange that Soaring flight is so rare in
nature but so popular with us for the last 100 years?

Nope. Flapping doesn't work even overly well for large birds. And
we're
just beginning to understand the principles of the aerodynamics of
things
like bees and hummingbirds.

What about clouds. I've heard that some clouds weigh 500,000 pounds.
They are probably held together by surface tension. The roiling
motion of clouds I bet is related to undulation for propulsion. What
we need is a material somewhere between bone and water vapor = foam.

I've heard that
the Wright Brothers patented Wing Warping (Flapping) and never let
anyone develop planes using Wing Warping flight. Is that true?

Bull****. Wing warping isn't flapping, it was a way to effect
directional changes in flight by changing the shape of the wing. It
wasn't either the propuslive or lifting force. While the Wrights did
get a patent on it, the real reason others didn't follow is that they
found that ailerons worked better.

If ailerons are so great then why don't birds have them? For that
matter why don't any animals have wheels? Because wheels try to
pretend friction doesen't exist and end up not being able to account
for their actions: How many times did you go around Mr. Wheel? I
don't know. Wings and joints spread friction around democratically so
that every particle gets some.

Does
that explain why the designs up until the time of the Wright
Brothers
were all Bird-like flapping designs and after were all fixed wing
soaring designs?

No, the Wrights gliders and powered planes were not flappers. They
were
fixed wing.

But when the trailing edge of the fixed wing warps the net movement is
down and forwards - so there is a tiny bit of propulsion backwards.

Yea, and man doesn't have enough muscle to lift a thousand pounds of
dirt in one load, which is why he invented the backhoe.

Clouds lift themselves and they don't have any propulsion.

Specialization is for insects."

I love it.

Soaring is not rare in nature. Birds, especially big birds flap only
when
absolutely necessary.

Soaring is rarer than undulating. Soaring is like rolling - it tries
to deny friction. Undulation makes use of friction.

Patrick Timony

"patrick timony" wrote in message om...

What about clouds. I've heard that some clouds weigh 500,000 pounds.
They are probably held together by surface tension.

You need to spend a little time doing some research rather than guessing
your principles of physics. Clouds are not "held together" at all.

The roiling motion of clouds I bet is related to undulation for propulsion.

Nonsense.

If ailerons are so great then why don't birds have them? For that
matter why don't any animals have wheels? Because wheels try to
pretend friction doesen't exist and end up not being able to account
for their actions:

The above is complete nonsense. Wheels don't "pretend" anything.
And you seem to be completely ignorant of what wing warping is.
Wing warping is not propulsion or lift. It's a control mechanism,
as are ailerons. It's not flapping.

How many times did you go around Mr. Wheel? I
don't know.

"I don't know" is a fairly good description of you knowledge of everything.


But when the trailing edge of the fixed wing warps the net movement is
down and forwards - so there is a tiny bit of propulsion backwards.

We call that drag (adverse yaw). But you can warp the wings on the Wright flyer
and it's not going anywhere. It's not "flapping"

Clouds lift themselves and they don't have any propulsion.

Clouds do not lift themselves.

Ron Natalie wrote:
"patrick timony"...

Clouds lift themselves and they don't have any propulsion.


Clouds do not lift themselves.

Momma sez "clouds are lifted by happy rays of sunshine!" That's what
momma sez.

Hey, flapping HAS been patented. Read it and weep. Wished I'd thought of
it first.

http://www.nawcad.navy.mil/techtrans...number=5884872