#1 Jet of World War II

On 15 Jul 2003, ArtKramr wrote:

The way the USAAC operated planes that were unarmored and unarmed were of no
value.

Well, certainly the recce, weather, and cargo aircraft were of some
considerable value? I seem to dimly recall that Eisenhower proclaimed
the unarmored and unarmed C-47 as one of the three most important weapons
of WW2 (along with the jeep and the M-1 rifle, IIRC).

And, didn't LeMay end up stripping his B-29 of all their armament
save the tail guns?

Cheers and all,

Subject: #1 Jet of World War II
From: Bill Shatzer
Date: 7/14/03 11:19 PM Pacific Daylight Time

And, didn't LeMay end up stripping his B-29 of all their armament
save the tail guns?

Cheers and all,

But he sure didn't use them over Germany.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: #1 Jet of World War II
From: nt (Gordon)
Date: 7/14/03 9:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time
Message-id:

That is a very interesting number. I can't help but compare it to the B-26
which got its best range at 180 IAS

I'd have to wonder, what was that "best range"? I was under the impression
that the Mosquito could fly several times as far as the B-26 with a full
4,000
pound bombload.

Take off the armor, take off the
guns and top turret and cut the crew to two and the B-26 may well have
outperformed the Mosquito by a large margin..

snip my own questions in reply to Art's

The way the USAAC operated planes that were unarmored and unarmed were of no
value.

Recce and Met Flights would be of at least some value, I'd hope. Same with
those legends of supply a/c.

We flew into flak in broad daylight and depended on armor and guns
for
defence.

A great strategy, too; no denying that the B-26 was exactly what the air
corps
needed in a medium bomber. The Mosquito did the same for the RAF, but used
its
speed in the same way you used your armor and guns. Price per unit was
pretty
good too.

And we carried 4,000 pounds of bombs every time.

I previously asked, how far? If a B-26 was tasked to fly from central England
to Berlin, what would its bomb load have been? I checked B26.com but
haven't
found what I am looking for, because I am really interested in how these two
machines stack up.

v/r
Gordon



We had an 1100 mile range fully loaded. What it would have been stripped of
armor with the guns and turret removed and the crew of 6 stripped down to a
crew or 2, I don't know, but I can well imagine that its range and cruising
speed would have been dramaticaly increased. But I sure wouldn't wanted to have
flown one into German flak in broad daylight. I guess our air generals felt
the same way. When they compared the Mosquito to the Marauder, they went with
the Marauder, And for that I sincerely thank them all.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

When they compared the Mosquito to the Marauder, they went with
the Marauder, And for that I sincerely thank them all.

yep, it was definitely just what the air corps needed, for its style of attack.

v/r
Gordon

Subject: #1 Jet of World War II
From: John Halliwell
Date: 7/17/03 3:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time

All it needed was enough speed to hold a single seat
fighter at bay long enough for the latter to run out of fuel (having
already had to climb to altitude at full throttle). In this case, short
bursts of extra speed were significant.


Especially if there was a cloud nearby.

Arthur Kramer
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Hienze Knocke (sp?), however, demonstrated by his successful low-altitude
interception of a Mossie, that if the Mossie used stereotyped tactics once
too often, an experienced Luftwaffe pilot could, with the proper tactics and
positioning, exploit that lapse even while flying a standard, unmodified
aircraft.

....although I can't find a missing Mosquito for the claim made by Knoke, I
think its likely to some day be found that he either got the date wrong (as he
certainly did in other places of his book) or the Mosquito he claimed equates
to some other a/c type, or finally, it WAS a Mosquito, but from an
unconventional source (since it doesn't turn up as a loss from a normal
squadron).

Wise mossie pilots varied their flight profiles on a regular
basis.

Same is true of F-117 pilots.

I've read that the only German interceptor which reliably had a decent
chance at intercepting the Mossie was the Me-262, which had the speed
capability from level flight to run down a Mossie from behind.

I call that "Chapter 6". Two years ago, I was honored to host the first
postwar reunion for Kdo Welter, so I will have to agree with your view,
coincidentally shared by Galland and several others, like Speer and that
rat-fink Goebbels.

The Swallow's
good climb rate to altitude and even higher cruising speed made an
interception of a Mossie a less problematical affair, with the proviso that
an alert mossie crew could generally easily maneuver inside the Me's turning
circle long enough to locate cloud cover or to cause the Me to have to rtb
in consideration of fuel usage.

It was even more of a challenge under the stars.

v/r
Gordon
Stormbirds.com/recon
====(A+C====
USN SAR Aircrew

"Got anything on your radar, SENSO?"
"Nothing but my forehead, sir."

If I were a Luftwaffe Sector Controller, or the Sector Commander, my
nightmare would be a squadron or more of Mosquitos flying through my
sector spaced about 1 minute apart. Using hand plotting and voice
comms, my command an dcontrol system would be well & truly saturated.

Peter, for 36 nights in a row (Feb-Mar 45), the RAF sent forces of 20-120
Mosquito bombers to hit Berlin in a morale-crushing exhibition of the tactics
you present. As you predicted, the Grossgefechtstand at Doberitz was well and
truly saturated, managing only a handfull of successful interceptions
throughout this period. Perhaps the most successful was the March 27th
interception of Pathfinder Andre van Amsterdam and his nav, Harry Forbes by a
Kdo Welter Me 262 pilot - the B. XVI was destroyed directly over the command
station, with wreckage landing on the site. Even then, the Battle Opera Hourse
and the dedicated anti-Mosquito ILO could only give the interceptor jet pilot
vague directions until the Mossie blundered into his path. Mosquito
interceptions were absolutely the most frustrating propositions for the NJG
corps.

v/r
Gordon

.The fact that the B-26 was used on
relatively short range missions, usually in areas where the US held
near-total
air supremacy, speaks volumes.

Bull****!

Which part of that did you find disagreeable?

The Mosquito and B-17 went hundreds of miles
into the heart of the Nazi defenses at a time when no one in their right
mind
would think of sending a force of Marauders after the same target.


No comment at all on that. Well, I guess that is the same as agreement, since
what I said was true.

I think this is getting silly - all three of these aircraft, and dozens of
other types, cooperated to help overwhelm the LW.

This is a discussion group. And comparing aircraft is what this thread is all
about. In fact it is what most posts here are all about. Get used to it.

After six years posting here, I am 'used to it'. What is difficult to get used
to is your opinion that yours is the only view that can possibly be correct or
valid, so you have to take out your aggression on whoever disagrees, however
politely they do so. I guess there is no point in trying to explain it, but
what occurs is that folks are less and less willing to even discuss things with
you. Just sad, because I for one would enjoy a meaningful dialogue with
someone of your experience without being insulted every time we don't agree
with you.

There is no need to
belittle
one excellent aircraft to bolster the reputation of another excellent
aircraft!

That is just what you have done in your post above.

Its precisely what you have been doing for as long as I've been here. I was
replying point by point to your comments, ALL belittling the Mosquito and any
other type that doesn't fit in your log book.

The B-26 remains my favorite US bomber of the war. It was a great aircraft,
with limitations that were well understood. So was the Mosquito.

I need to pay attention to the way you deal with folks because in the future,
I'll be in the same situation - people will be asking for my opinion about
things in the aviation side of the cold war, and I have to weigh my personal
experiences against the information I was not privy to at the time. On top of
that, I will have to weigh my biases carefully, in order to provide the next
generation of 'wannabees' and 'you weren't theres' with a source of information
that doesn't demean someone simply for not sharing my particular life
experience.

v/r
Gordon

I apologize, Art. That was not intended as a posting and my intent was to
email that to you directly.

Gordon

I undesrtand that there was a later model Mosquito on the drawing boards in
1944 that could carry 100,000 pounds of bombs with a 10,000 mile range at 1500
miles per hour all the way. I understand one prototype was built , took off on
a test flight in 1944 and is still up there. But I don't really believe that
last part.Do you?


Well Art, funny you should mention that. I was out on the porch the
other night sucking back on a beer when the damned thing came flying by
at Mach 2. Coulda swore they waved at me too !!!!

Cheers...Chris