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I want to build the most EVIL plane EVER !!!



 
 
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  #71  
Old December 4th 05, 05:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default (Mini-500)I want to build the most EVIL plane EVER !!!

I don't have much time to research your "time line" for accuracy, I'm to
busy on other projects. But, assuming you are correct, and the dates you
have sounds about right to me, here are some answers:


C.D.Damron wrote:
Dennis, in separate posts, you have provided the info required to establish
a timeline that shows you were more concerned with marketing than testing.



You obviously have never designed, tested, manufactured and sold
aircraft, or you would know better as to the balance it takes in the
kitbuilt industry to accomplish such a goal.

Yes, the purpose of the project was to sell and deliver kitbuilt
helicopters. What a surprise, eh? We are not certified, can't charge
certified prices, and don't have funding that it takes to test to
certified levels. That's why there is "certified aircraft" and "kitbuilt
experimental aircraft".

Are you really a fool that don't understand the kitbuilt market? We
tested for as long as we financially could, and for as long as the
customers would tolerate. It was finally up to the customers when we had
to freeze the design, because it became clear they would not wait any
longer. We were at a point where we had solved all the design problems,
tested to the point where we were having no immediate foreseeable
problems, and then started manufacturing. That is what most all kitbuilt
manufacturer have to do.

Besides, let's not forget the fact that even what little problems the
Mini-500 did have in customers hands;

1. We fixed those problems for free or at cost.
2. We still had less problems than certified helicopters had at
introductions.
3. We never had a crash due to a failed part that was properly installed
and maintained.
4. We never had a crash due to poor flying characteristics, in fact we
had excellent flying characteristics.

Could we have been even better? Absolutely, if we would have had all of
our experience and knowledge in advance. But, we did very well, even
considering it was our first helicopter project, we succeeded when most
all other failed.


In the Summer of 1992, the Mini-500 showed up at Oshkosh, but that aircraft
didn't have its 40 hours flown off yet. Whether this was the first Mini or
not, the timeline suggests that Fetters designed and tested his new design
in a year and half, or less.



That seems to be right.

I started in December - January 1990.


Sometime in 1992, brochures were in circulation stating non-engine TBO's of
2000+ hours. By October of 1992, Revolution reported at least 150 orders
had been placed.



No, we started saying we were designing the components to a 2000 hour
life back in mid 1990.

Dude, I had 50 orders before I even finished the first aircraft. After I
flew it for the first time sometime in 1991, I had over 100 orders.


I'm not sure when the first Mini-500's shipped, but it is clear that the
sales effort was on before the design was completed and TBO claims were
advertised that had not been tested.



You are correct. Welcome to the kitbuilt world. That is how it is done.


By July of 1995, N500ZZ (serial
#0000) only had 200 hours and was by everybody's opinion, the aircraft with
the most time.



Sounds correct.


Dennis, when Revolution had 150 orders, how many hours did your high time
aircraft have???



I can't remember without looking it up, and I don't have that much time.
But, if it were around 50 to 100 hours would not surprise me. But, by
the time we started shipping kits, we had well more than double that, as
I remember.

The point you are trying to make is that I had the audacity to actually
take orders for the Mini-500 before it was fully tested!!! OH MY GOD!!!!

Well, wake up Mr. Darmon and smell the aviation fuel! That is how the
kitbuilt market works. Don't like it? Stay away from it!


Dennis Fetters

Designer of;
Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes
Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes
Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter
Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter
Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter
Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter
Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter
Ads
  #72  
Old December 4th 05, 05:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default (Mini-500)I want to build the most EVIL plane EVER !!!

Helper wrote:
Dennis Fetters wrote:
WRONG!! In our literature we said that we designed the components to a
2000 hour TBO.



Ah. You deliberately misled customers by using weasel words, but didn't
quite say "to", you used the word "with".
Here are some quotes from various brochures over the years:



Ah HA!! Mr. Help, you are no help. People are not as stupid as you
portray them to be. How many customers do you think purchased a Mini-500
without calling us to ask questions? How many do you think didn't
understand what we wrote, or those that didn't understand about the 2000
hours asked for clarification? How many people do you think really
thought they were purchasing a fully 2000 hour tested helicopter for
only $20,000 to $28,000.

Why do you think other people are so stupid? Or, do you judge all others
as if they were equal to you? I guess if "you" would have been someone
that purchased a Mini-500 based on your belief it had a 2000 tested
component life, then I would actually owe someone an apology for their
lacking braid capacity to understand. Lucky for me, you didn't buy one.


All components, except the Rotax 582 engine, were designed with a 2,000
hour T.B.O.

All components, except the engine, are designed with a TBO of at least
2,000 hours.

High TBO: All components except the engine and lifetime composite main
blades, are designed with a TBO up to 2,000 hours.

The main transmission contains a set of ground spiral bevel ring and
pinion gears, designed and manufactured specifically for the Mini-500B
to give a 2,000 hour TBO.



Thank you for backing up what we advertised.


We also stated that they were not tested to a 2000 hour TBO.



You _never_ stated any such thing.


Yes we did.


Dennis Fetters

Designer of;
Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes
Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes
Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter
Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter
Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter
Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter
Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter
  #73  
Old December 4th 05, 05:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default (Mini-500)I want to build the most EVIL plane EVER !!!

Flyingmonk wrote:

Bin Fetters wrote:

Just like many commercial helicopters that also had premature failures
(and that did test 2000 hours), including the R-22 and R-44, some of our
components did not make it to the designed life.



Your designs will never EVER be in the same league as that of Frank
Robinson's and NONE of your designs made it even CLOSE to 2000 hours.



Well, thank you Mr. Flyingmonk for coming out with this off the wall
comment, just out of the blue!! I would never claim to be in the same
league as Frank Robinson. He is a truly gifted helicopter designer. Man,
you need to take a chill-pill or something.


Dennis Fetters

Designer of;
Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes
Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes
Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter
Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter
Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter
Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter
Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter

  #74  
Old December 4th 05, 05:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default (Mini-500)I want to build the most EVIL plane EVER !!!

Bin Fetters wrote:
Just like many commercial helicopters that also had premature failures
(and that did test 2000 hours), including the R-22 and R-44, some of our
components did not make it to the designed life.


Your designs will never EVER be in the same league as that of Frank
Robinson's and NONE of your designs made it even CLOSE to 2000 hours.

  #75  
Old December 4th 05, 06:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default (Mini-500)I want to build the most EVIL plane EVER !!!

C.D.Damron wrote:

"Darrel Toepfer" wrote in message
...

C.D.Damron wrote:

"Dennis Fetters" wrote...

The first time I took it to Oshkosh it had 0 hours. The second time it
had 210 hours.


Who left the master switch on?


By July of 1995, N500ZZ (serial #0000) only had 200 hours and


was by everybody's opinion, the aircraft with the most time.




For Fetters, the history of the Mini-500 starts with the display and demos
of Cicare CH-6 at Oshkosh. He refers to this aircraft as "the prototype",
but in his own posts states that he did not have access to the prototype
after he ended his relationship with Cicare, forcing him to design and test
a helicopter from scratch.



Correct. Mr. Cicare, for whatever reason he had, could not live up to
his end of the deal, forcing me to take on the Mini-500 on my own and
with none of his help or experience, which would have been beneficial.


Based on the timeline, Fetters designed a helicopter from scratch in a year
and half after ending his relationship with Cicare, all the while taking
orders based largely on the excitement generated by the earlier CH-6. I
find it an amazing task that a helicopter could be designed, built, and
tested in this timeframe.



Thank you. It was an incredible amount of work. A challenge of a
lifetime. Testing continued on many years after until we shipped the
first kit, and many years after that until we closed our doors in 2000.


If you think that timeframe is a little tight, throw in a 1993 flood that
Fetters has said resulted in delays.



Right. We even lost our only flying Mini-500, along with all of our
factory equipment, molds and part supplies. We had to start all over,
and move to a new location and outfit it too. Yet, in a year and a half
after, we shipped our first kit. It was a magnificent comeback and
triumph over adversity. Thank you for recognizing this.


The high-time aircraft had about 200 hours on it by July of 1995.

I DIDN'T THINK OF IT EARLIER, BUT I WONDER WHEN THE FIRST AIRCRAFT WAS
ASSEMBLED AND TESTED USING PRODUCTION PARTS AS THEY APPEARED IN ACTUAL
PRODUCTION KITS.



The first Mini-500 I made had 95% of the same parts in it as was in the
finalized machines. We also had a second Mini-500 before shipping, that
was helping in the testing. The design was frozen sometime in early
1995, and tested on until the day we closed.


This is an important question, as many of the problems associated with the
Mini-500 were quality control issues that might have been revealed had
adequate testing been performed on a kit-built aircraft, instead of a
prototype craft where every part is crafted under close scrutiny.



We had some quality control issues, as well as any new company with a
product. Look at the R-22 and R-44 problems, and those were certified
helicopters! We solved our problems, as they did.

If you had some real-earth experience in what you were saying, then you
would not be saying it.


Dennis Fetters

Designer of;
Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes
Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes
Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter
Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter
Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter
Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter
Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter
  #76  
Old December 4th 05, 06:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default (Mini-500)I want to build the most EVIL plane EVER !!!

Flyingmonk wrote:

I don't think he's been able to sell anything since the 500 fiasco.



This shows just how ignorant you really are. Just because I learned my
lesson to not sell to the kitbuilt market, don't mean I stopped
developing, building and selling. Hell, I got customers with money I'm
selling to now. It's amazing how price separates the quality of
customers you get. Not true for everyone, I did have many really good
customers that could never afford to own a helicopter until I came out
with the Mini-500.

Dennis Fetters

Designer of;
Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes
Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes
Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter
Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter
Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter
Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter
Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter

  #77  
Old December 4th 05, 06:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default (Mini-500)I want to build the most EVIL plane EVER !!!

Flyingmonk wrote:

My observation is:
1. Denise is a good businessman, but not a good designer.
2. Cicarre is a good designer, but not a good businessman.


Everyone has the right to their own opinion, no matter how uneducated it
may be.


Dennis Fetters

Designer of;
Air Command 1/plcs Gyroplanes
Air Command 2/plcs Gyroplanes
Mini-500 1/Plcs Helicopter
Voyager-500 2/Plcs Helicopter
Excalibur 5/Plcs Turbine Helicopter
Star-Lite-A VTUAV Helicopter
Star-Lite-B VTUAV Helicopter
  #78  
Old December 5th 05, 01:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default (Mini-500)I want to build the most EVIL plane EVER !!!


"Dennis Fetters" wrote in message
. com...
If you had some real-earth experience in what you were saying, then you
would not be saying it.


You don't have to design and market a helicopter to understand that you
should probably design and test your product adequately before selling it.
Call me old fashioned, but that is how I think it should be done, especially
if lives are at stake.




  #79  
Old December 5th 05, 01:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Default (Mini-500)I want to build the most EVIL plane EVER !!!

Dennis Fetters wrote:
Helper wrote:

Dennis Fetters wrote:
WRONG!! In our literature we said that we designed the components to
a 2000 hour TBO.


Ah. You deliberately misled customers by using weasel words, but
didn't quite say "to", you used the word "with".
Here are some quotes from various brochures over the years:


Ah HA!! Mr. Help, you are no help. People are not as stupid as you
portray them to be.


Well that's a switch! You marketed to entry-level customers. Then after
your collapse, you portrayed them as stupid, incapable, and the cause of
all your problems.

How many customers do you think purchased a Mini-500
without calling us to ask questions? How many do you think didn't
understand what we wrote, or those that didn't understand about the 2000
hours asked for clarification? How many people do you think really
thought they were purchasing a fully 2000 hour tested helicopter for
only $20,000 to $28,000.


We'll never know how many of them thought what.

Why do you think other people are so stupid? Or, do you judge all others
as if they were equal to you? I guess if "you" would have been someone
that purchased a Mini-500 based on your belief it had a 2000 tested
component life, then I would actually owe someone an apology for their
lacking braid capacity to understand. Lucky for me, you didn't buy one.

All components, except the Rotax 582 engine, were designed with a
2,000 hour T.B.O.

All components, except the engine, are designed with a TBO of at least
2,000 hours.

High TBO: All components except the engine and lifetime composite main
blades, are designed with a TBO up to 2,000 hours.

The main transmission contains a set of ground spiral bevel ring and
pinion gears, designed and manufactured specifically for the Mini-500B
to give a 2,000 hour TBO.


Thank you for backing up what we advertised.


LOL! It was pure hyperbole. You never backed it up then, and nobody's
backing it up now.

We also stated that they were not tested to a 2000 hour TBO.


You _never_ stated any such thing.


Yes we did.


Naw, I've got a bunch of brochures here and there's nothing of the sort,
not a hint.

You're not very popular here, ya' notice? Feeling kind of alone? Maybe
it's time for you to pop up as "planeman" again and praise yourself.
  #80  
Old December 5th 05, 05:59 AM posted to rec.aviation.homebuilt
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Posts: n/a
Default (Mini-500)I want to build the most EVIL plane EVER !!!

C.D.Damron wrote:

"Dennis Fetters" wrote in message
. com...

If you had some real-earth experience in what you were saying, then you
would not be saying it.



You don't have to design and market a helicopter to understand that you
should probably design and test your product adequately before selling it.
Call me old fashioned, but that is how I think it should be done, especially
if lives are at stake.


I'm sure Denise recognizes that lives are at risk. Looks like he is
marketing special bags for Mini-500 pilots.
http://tinyurl.com/8jfcv
 




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