Question for the real pilots

What is a Class B clearance?

Why is this a hard question? A class B clearance is a clearance
permitting legal entry into Class B airspace.

The topic at hand is VFR Class B clearances - a clearance permitting a
VFR flight to enter class B airspace legally. The contention is there
do (or do not) exist "implied" clearances of this type - that is,
clearances that are granted (and legally upheld) which do not contain
the magic words "Cleared into the class Bravo", or something very close
to that.

Jose
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Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
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"Jose" wrote in message
t...

Why is this a hard question?


I didn't know that it was.



A class B clearance is a clearance
permitting legal entry into Class B airspace.


Like "Cleared to Love Field..." issued at a point outside of the Dallas
Class B airspace? That didn't seem very hard.



The topic at hand is VFR Class B clearances - a clearance permitting a VFR
flight to enter class B airspace legally. The contention is there do (or
do not) exist "implied" clearances of this type - that is, clearances that
are granted (and legally upheld) which do not contain the magic words
"Cleared into the class Bravo", or something very close to that.


Like "Cleared for takeoff" issued to a VFR aircraft at Love Field?

Like "Cleared to Love Field..." issued at a point outside of the Dallas
Class B airspace? That didn't seem very hard.

Well, that's the question. Would a VFR aircraft get a clearance that
says "cleared to Love Field"? That sounds like an IFR clearance, or at
least the beginning of one. Is such a (VFR) clearance sufficient for
entry into the Bravo, and successful avoidance of prosecution? Has this
been demonstrated in case law yet?

Like "Cleared for takeoff" issued to a VFR aircraft at Love Field?

No, at that point one is already =in= the Bravo, having never actually
entered it, since the flight originates in the Bravo.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 11:44:57 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote in
. net:


What is a Class B clearance?

It's an instruction issued (or implied?) by ATC, and the resulting
separation of the cleared aircraft from other flights, and vice versa,
afforded by ATC personnel.

"Jose" wrote in message
t...

Well, that's the question. Would a VFR aircraft get a clearance that says
"cleared to Love Field"?


No.



That sounds like an IFR clearance, or at least the beginning of one.


It is. The regulation requiring a clearance to operate an aircraft in Class
B airspace is among the General Flight Rules, it does not differentiate
between VFR and IFR operations.



Is such a (VFR) clearance sufficient for entry into the Bravo, and
successful avoidance of prosecution? Has this been demonstrated in case
law yet?


It's not a VFR clearance, it's considered sufficient for entry into the
Bravo for IFR aircraft.



No, at that point one is already =in= the Bravo, having never actually
entered it, since the flight originates in the Bravo.


One is in the airspace when on the surface? Suppose you were based at an
uncontrolled field in a Class B surface area and you needed to taxi your
airplane to a maintenance shop. How would you obtain the required
clearance?

Well, that's the question. Would a VFR aircraft get a clearance that says
"cleared to Love Field"?
No.

Then it's irrelevant. We're talking about VFR aircraft entering the
Bravo on an "implied" clearance.

No, at that point one is already =in= the Bravo, having never actually
entered it, since the flight originates in the Bravo.
One is in the airspace when on the surface?

Yes. Bravo goes to the surface at the primary airport (and maybe some
surrounding fields)

Suppose you were based at an
uncontrolled field in a Class B surface area and you needed to taxi your
airplane to a maintenance shop. How would you obtain the required
clearance?

Interesting question. I presume that class B clearance is only required
for =flight=, at any altitude, including two inches. If I am correct,
you would not need a clearance to taxi at an uncontrolled airport in the
Bravo surface area (*), but you =would= need a clearance to hover-taxi a
helicopter under the same circumstances.

Something for the FAA lawyers to take up on some hapless pilot.

Jose
(*) by this I mean the portion of the Bravo airspace that extends to the
surface.
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

What is a Class B clearance?

Steve,

If you're going to continue to ask inane questions, can't you at least
please try and be a little creative about it?

A jump plane orbiting at 12,000 MSL above Central Park receives the
clearance, "Cleared to the LaGuardia Airport". At that point, the jumpers
all jump out. Are the jumpers cleared into the Class B?

This being an exhibition of extreme jumping, each of the jumpers is holding
a piece of an J-3 Cub. On the way down, they assemble the Cub and at 5000
AGL (within the CBAS), they get the job done, one of them climbs in, slaps
an "EXPERIMENTAL" placard on it, starts up the motor, and flies away. Is
this newly-assembled Cub still cleared to the LaGuardia Airport?

Before the Cub can land, the jump plane has dove down, caught up with the
Cub, and extends a tow line from a drum winch in the tail. The Cub pilot
picks up the tow, turns off the motor, sets the autopilot to "auto-tow",
jumps out, and continues his jump under reserve canopy. Is the jump plane
and tow still operating under a proper clearance?

On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 16:17:50 -0600, Newps wrote
in :


Larry Dighera wrote:
In the discussion below, I stated that there are times when a Class B
clearance is implied. Can one of the ATC personnel among the
readership of this newsgroup respond to that?


The FAA tells pilots that class B clearances are never implied.

That's consistent with what I was taught by my CFII, but I recall
there being some "weasel clause" that may affect the necessity to
receive the Class B clearance explicitly. Unfortunately, I don't
recall what the circumstances were.

However many pilots have gotten off during the investigation because the
controller vectored them into the class B.

I understand the reasoning behind such decisions; the controller was
providing vectors and separation at the time of the alleged violation,
so safety was not compromised; it was merely a breach of 7110.65
phraseology committed by the controller, not the pilot. Is that about
right?

But it would sure be a pain in the ass to be right in this situation.

It certainly would.

I suppose, if a pilot made it a practice of explicitly _requesting_
clearance into Class B airspace every time (instead of saying "with
you" or some such), it would be even clearer that the violation caused
by the controller's omission of the "cleared into Class Bravo" phrase
was not the fault of the pilot. Does that sound like a useful habit
to get into?

Jose wrote:

Like "Cleared for takeoff" issued to a VFR aircraft at Love Field?

No, at that point one is already =in= the Bravo, having never actually
entered it, since the flight originates in the Bravo.


At class B primary airports, clearance into the class B airspace for VFR
flights is typically given when the pilot calls Clearance Delivery. At
least that's how they've done it at every class B field I've ever flown out
of. The first phrase of the clearance from CD is "Cleared into the class
Bravo airspace".

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

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Newps wrote:


Larry Dighera wrote:
In the discussion below, I stated that there are times when a Class B
clearance is implied. Can one of the ATC personnel among the
readership of this newsgroup respond to that?



The FAA tells pilots that class B clearances are never implied. However
many pilots have gotten off during the investigation because the
controller vectored them into the class B. But it would sure be a pain
in the ass to be right in this situation.

A bit of a related question, and I don't know if it is even
possible, but I'll ask anyway.

Is there or has there ever been a time where a Class D
airport's pattern altitude has been above the floor of Class B
airspace? If so, would any departure out of that Class D airport imply
or include the call for being cleared into the Class B airspace?

BL.


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