How to deal with a difficult DE?

I have a touchy issue I need guidance on..

Without going into any specifics, how can I advise a student of mine
about problems he/she is facing while working with a Designated Pilot
Examiner towards a rating? Seem this particular DE is using
'questionable' tactics and being unnecessarily difficult with dealing
with this student?

Should I advise the student to voice their concerns towards the DE or
contact the local FSDO? From information I have gathered from other
instructors and students in my area, they all agree that this DE is
not using standard evaluation methods.

What would be involved if this student decides to stop the test and
switch to another DE?

Sorry I can be more specific.

In article ,
(Mark) wrote:

I have a touchy issue I need guidance on..

Without going into any specifics, how can I advise a student of mine
about problems he/she is facing while working with a Designated Pilot
Examiner towards a rating? Seem this particular DE is using
'questionable' tactics and being unnecessarily difficult with dealing
with this student?

Should I advise the student to voice their concerns towards the DE or
contact the local FSDO? From information I have gathered from other
instructors and students in my area, they all agree that this DE is
not using standard evaluation methods.

What would be involved if this student decides to stop the test and
switch to another DE?

Sorry I can be more specific.

Why not use a different DE and avoid the entire problem?

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

Of course, if someone else had NOT elected to "Why not use a different DE
and avoid the entire problem" the DE in question might not be a problem
today...




"Dale" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Mark) wrote:

I have a touchy issue I need guidance on..

Without going into any specifics, how can I advise a student of mine
about problems he/she is facing while working with a Designated Pilot
Examiner towards a rating? Seem this particular DE is using
'questionable' tactics and being unnecessarily difficult with dealing
with this student?

Should I advise the student to voice their concerns towards the DE or
contact the local FSDO? From information I have gathered from other
instructors and students in my area, they all agree that this DE is
not using standard evaluation methods.

What would be involved if this student decides to stop the test and
switch to another DE?

Sorry I can be more specific.

Why not use a different DE and avoid the entire problem?

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

"Mark" wrote in message
om...
I have a touchy issue I need guidance on..

Without going into any specifics, how can I advise a student of mine
about problems he/she is facing while working with a Designated Pilot
Examiner towards a rating? Seem this particular DE is using
'questionable' tactics and being unnecessarily difficult with dealing
with this student?

Should I advise the student to voice their concerns towards the DE or
contact the local FSDO? From information I have gathered from other
instructors and students in my area, they all agree that this DE is
not using standard evaluation methods.

Mark, it very probable that the problem above is not the same as the
one I'm going to tell about below. I'll get to that in a minute. But first,
maybe you are getting only one side of the story(s, sic). Have you thought
about going to the DE and talk to him/her?
When I went for my check ride in 1973, I made a big mistake with my DE.
When I talked about my problems with my CFI later, and in reflecting back on
it through the years, I I know I created the problem.
My problem? I couldn't keep my mouth shut. I was cocky, over-confident,
and a smart-ass. For instance, in the midst of demonstrating recovery from a
departure(accelerated) stall, I said I couldn't see how anyone could get
into that condition, much less a secondary stall, without doing it
deliberately -- certainly not if they were awake and paying attention. The
DE gave me the 'look.'
Next on the agenda came recovery from unusual attitudes. I didn't think
anything about the DE asking me to climb an additional 2,000 feet above what
was already a safe altitude. And I have no idea what he did to wind me up
and tumble my internal gyros. All I remember is when he said, "Recover," I
stalled in less than 5 seconds. In attempting to recover from that, I did a
secondary stall... then a tertiary stall!! Only by going to the gauges did I
ever get the airplane flying again.
I came close to puking all over the cockpit. In spite of having
completed an aerobatic checkout in a Citrabia when I was still logging time
as a student.
The DE let me fly around for fifteen minutes or so before continuing
the checkride. That checkride, by the way, lasted 2:40. Other than him
telling me what to do next, we didn't exchange more than ten words during
that time. He did sign me off that day, in spite of the stalling incident.
So, talk to the DE, if you haven't already. Tell him or her about your
concerns. Get the other side of the story. Just because other students are
having trouble, doesn't mean something is wrong with the DE.

"Mark" wrote in message
om...
I have a touchy issue I need guidance on..

Without going into any specifics, how can I advise a student of mine
about problems he/she is facing while working with a Designated Pilot
Examiner towards a rating? Seem this particular DE is using
'questionable' tactics and being unnecessarily difficult with dealing
with this student?

Should I advise the student to voice their concerns towards the DE or
contact the local FSDO? From information I have gathered from other
instructors and students in my area, they all agree that this DE is
not using standard evaluation methods.

What would be involved if this student decides to stop the test and
switch to another DE?


If the examiner is not abiding by the practical test standards, then having
a little discussion with him is appropriate. You might learn something and
end up agreeing with him. If that does not give you satisfaction, then
complain to the FSDO.

The examiner may end the ride by failing the student. The student may end
the test and ask for a continuance if, for reasons beyond his control, it
becomes unsafe or impractical to continue. Such reasons might include sudden
illness or inclement weather, but not because he thinks the examiner is
incompetent. If you don't think the examiner can handle the job, then you
should have recommended a different examiner in the first place.

Of course, it is more difficult if you are going for that multi-engine sea
commercial certificate and there is only one examiner qualified to
administer it. Even then I would send a student out of state before allowing
him to fly with an abusive or dishonest examiner (which is my definition of
'questionable').

My advice to all instructors is to keep your students close and their
examiners closer. Meet with examiners regularly. Ask them what problems they
are seeing. Talk to them about how they conduct their tests. Find out what
they do. Get copies of their handouts and requirements for your students. Be
willing to listen to their advice.

Examiners, umpires, referees, and the like share the uncomfortable position
of having every mistake look like it is due to incompetence or bias. If your
team loses by three points, it is not because the referee erred in making
that pass interference call on the last play. It is because of the way you
played the whole game. Similarly, if an examiner insists on testing students
in a certain way, then you better make sure that students you send to him
can pass that test whether you agree with it or not.

(Mark) wrote in message . com...
I have a touchy issue I need guidance on..

Without going into any specifics, how can I advise a student of mine
about problems he/she is facing while working with a Designated Pilot
Examiner towards a rating? Seem this particular DE is using
'questionable' tactics and being unnecessarily difficult with dealing
with this student?

You are the customer, the DE needs to understand that. Most of us
interview DEs before we decide to start using them. The DEs know that
they need to do a good job. No one would ever expect a DE to give a
certificate to someone who doesn't meet the PTS, but we do expect that
the DE is respectful to the applicant and have a disarming
personality. Some DEs actually call around and try to get us to use
them. Some offer perks such as free CFI renewal rides. However, what
really counts is how the DE works with your students and taht the DE
is fair. I've never seen a student get upset after failing a checkride
when the DE has professionaly explained what part of the PTS the
student wasn't correct in.

I actually use different DEs for different students depending on
personality.

-Robert

There was one here that spent almost 8 hours with a PPL
applicant and then flunked her on some little thing. Any
CFI who would send a student to a DE like that has
to be nuts.



"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
om...
(Mark) wrote in message
. com...
I have a touchy issue I need guidance on..

Without going into any specifics, how can I advise a student of mine
about problems he/she is facing while working with a Designated Pilot
Examiner towards a rating? Seem this particular DE is using
'questionable' tactics and being unnecessarily difficult with dealing
with this student?

You are the customer, the DE needs to understand that. Most of us
interview DEs before we decide to start using them. The DEs know that
they need to do a good job. No one would ever expect a DE to give a
certificate to someone who doesn't meet the PTS, but we do expect that
the DE is respectful to the applicant and have a disarming
personality. Some DEs actually call around and try to get us to use
them. Some offer perks such as free CFI renewal rides. However, what
really counts is how the DE works with your students and taht the DE
is fair. I've never seen a student get upset after failing a checkride
when the DE has professionaly explained what part of the PTS the
student wasn't correct in.

I actually use different DEs for different students depending on
personality.

-Robert

"OtisWinslow" wrote in message
news
There was one here that spent almost 8 hours with a PPL
applicant and then flunked her on some little thing. Any
CFI who would send a student to a DE like that has
to be nuts.


I have seen DEs do this with applicants that they thought were marginal.
They ask more questions to confirm their opinion one way or another. The
applicant may flunk on some small item, but what the DE is really saying is
that he wants the applicant to go back and study harder. He tells the
applicant this, but the applicant does not necessarily mention that when she
tells other people how her check ride went.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...
I have seen DEs do this with applicants that they thought were marginal.
They ask more questions to confirm their opinion one way or another. The
applicant may flunk on some small item, but what the DE is really saying is
that he wants the applicant to go back and study harder. He tells the
applicant this, but the applicant does not necessarily mention that when she
tells other people how her check ride went.

Yes. That's why its critical that we have a good relationship with the
DE. The DE should take the time to talk to the CFI after the checkride
and debrief us. Whether the student passes or fails, its good to know
what the DE's opinion was. It also allows you to warn students of
items that a particular DE is focused on.

-Robert

First of all I want to thank everyone for their opinion and advise.
It's a real pleasure to have a forum like this to get honest opinions.

Second, the situation has since been resolved to everyone's
satisfaction..

My student continued the test the next day after I had a chance to
lightly question the DE. At first, I really didn't want to address
the issue about how dissatisfied the student was with the DE's
personality. However after chit chatting with the DE for a few I
‘discovered' that the DE was on his 3rd day of all day check rides and
was getting tired. Plus, it seems there was some miscommunication
between the student and DE during the exam that might have lead to a
misunderstanding and stress being placed on the student. However, on
the final day of the check ride (3 days in all, weather was a factor),
my student reported that the DE seems to be in a much better mood and
was actually pleasant to fly with. In the end, the student ended up
passing.

What I've learned? In the future I'm going to establish a better
relationship between myself the available DE's in my area. I take the
blame for not devoting more attention to this. With that said, I still
have some reservations about using this DE again. I understand that
some ‘stress' is normal, however if the DE is taking it several steps
further (due to his own fatigue or other factors), then I see that as
a problem.

One other factor I can now discuss is the DE's method of
distracting/testing (?) the student. Seems even if the student is
giving the DE a correct answer to a questions, the DE will look
disappointed and shake their head in a disapproving manner. I've
personally never heard of this tactic, but I think it's a poor method
to use during an exam.

So, thanks again for any comments.

Fly safe,